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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: John Kim on February 09, 2010, 06:47:51 AM
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I've been listening to Solti's analogue recording of M3rd. Revisiting it in a long time, I find it surprisingly likable. First, it has Decca's gorgeous 'ffss – Full Frequency Stereophonic Sound' from their peak time. Second, as in Solti's M1st and M2nd from the same period it shows the LSO in its top form abound in power, with a unique Mahlerian style and technical prowess, all of which must have been rare at that time. No wonder their later renditions with Horenstein and MTT were so successful. Solti has a good sense for the structure and molds each movt. convincingly, if not entirely successfully; the controversial Finale clocks in just under 20 min. but it doesn't feel as fast it actually is. The balance and dynamics employed throughout are very similar to the M2nd; the loud and blazing brass, the low string occasionally springing and roaring in the background with a prominence, with strong contrasts between different groups of the instruments. Overall, if you liked Solti's way with Resurrection Symphony (LSO, NOT CSO), you'll react to this recording positively. But I know there are folks and critics out there who dismissed this M3rd when it first came out, so I won't try to make too strong an argument here. Suffice it to say that I enjoyed it with a pleasant surprise and will come back again soon.
John,
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My mistake here, not ffff but "ffss – Full Frequency Stereophonic Sound".
James kindly corrected me.
Thanks ;).
John,
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go ahead and make the argument. this is a fine recording. :)
dj
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IMHO, all of Solti's Mahler with LSO and Concertgebouw (M4) and up to M8 with Chicago were fine - after that, it was all downhill. I bought M2 with CSO when it came out and gave it away.
BTW, another Solti Mahler LSO recording that gets little or no mention anywhere nowadays is his M9. I need to pull that out and give it a listen as John Kim did M3.
Wade
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IMHO, all of Solti's Mahler with LSO and Concertgebouw (M4) and up to M8 with Chicago were fine - after that, it was all downhill. I bought M2 with CSO when it came out and gave it away.
BTW, another Solti Mahler LSO recording that gets little or no mention anywhere nowadays is his M9. I need to pull that out and give it a listen as John Kim did M3.
Wade
Quite right. Make no mistake, Solti's earlier M9th with LSO is another pinnacle he achieved with the orchestra. It is a magnificent Mahler Ninth indeed.
John,
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My mistake here, not ffff but "ffss – Full Frequency Stereophonic Sound".
Actualy I think it was ffrr, full frequency range recording.
FFSS referred to the Decca Stereo ffss pickup head.
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Actualy I think it was ffrr, full frequency range recording.
FFSS referred to the Decca Stereo ffss pickup head.
Clarification: The EARLY Decca/London stereo LP and reel tape releases DID utilize ffss on the label. It was about the mid-sixties when they switched to ffrr. I have several ffss LP and tape issues.
Wade
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I believe that this M3 is the only commercial Mahler recording of Solti's that I've yet to hear. Decca released remasters of the M1, M2, and M9 in the last decade -- which I purchased -- but I don't remember seeing a remastered LSO M3. I have never read anything positive about the LSO M3 recording until this thread. The Chicago M3 is simply dreadful!
I agree that the LSO M1 and M2 are top tier recordings, although I am bit bothered by the lack of low-end heft typical of recordings from that age.
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Scott,
The Solti/LSO M3 was indeed released on CD by Decca in the early 90s. I missed it when it came out although I had owned the LPs and a burned copy for quite some time. But two days ago, I got a used copy from ebay at $14.99 (somebody must be watching the board closely!) :D ;).
Having revisited the recording after all these years, I think it is a pretty good M3rd, much better than the Chicago remake.
Give it a try!
John,
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Actually I think it was ffrr, full frequency range recording.
FFSS referred to the Decca Stereo ffss pickup head.
Clarification: The EARLY Decca/London stereo LP and reel tape releases DID utilize ffss on the label. It was about the mid-sixties when they switched to ffrr. I have several ffss LP and tape issues.
Wade
When Decca began releasing stereo LPs in 1958, they switched their trademark from FFRR to FFSS on both Decca (UK) and London (USA) releases. About a decade later, stereo having become well established, they reverted to their original FFRR banner. To further complicate matters, the switch back to FFRR occurred earlier on London releases than on Decca releases, so that some later material—quite possibly including the Solti/LSO M3 from January, 1968—was released in England as FFSS but in the USA as FFRR.
James
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Thank you James. It all makes sense now....I think :)
As for Solti's M3, I too have yet to hear this recording. I have the LSO versions of M1, M2 and M9 and like them very much. The M2 has always been one of my favourites, with Harper and Watts just about the best out there as far as I am concerned.
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My two cents: The Solti/LSO M3 is OK at best, while the later Chicago one is among the worst Mahler recordings I've ever listened to.
Barry
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My two cents: The Solti/LSO M3 is OK at best, while the later Chicago one is among the worst Mahler recordings I've ever listened to.
Barry
Indeed. It's pretty bad; no insights, utterly one-dimensional, blasting brass, super fast 1st and 6th movts. Don't understand how it ended up getting some rave reviews.
John,
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My two cents: The Solti/LSO M3 is OK at best, while the later Chicago one is among the worst Mahler recordings I've ever listened to.
Barry
Indeed. It's pretty bad; no insights, utterly one-dimensional, blasting brass, super fast 1st and 6th movts. Don't understand how it ended up getting some rave reviews.
John,
I'm actually really curious to hear this now! ;D
--Todd
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Look at this photo. It's ffrr:
http://cgi.ebay.com/MAHLER-Symphony-n-3-SOLTI-WATTS-London-FFRR-2-LP_W0QQitemZ310147659231QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMusic_on_Vinyl?hash=item48363db5df
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Look at this photo. It's ffrr:
Seeing that London album cover again brought back a lot of memories. The Decca cover for this LP featured two different views of the Rodin bronze of Mahler (the A casting) floated on a black background; this cover also became an alternate US cover at some point.
BTW, I've done a little digging of my own—related to the Grammy Awards—and in trying to find out if Solti's CSO M3 won a Grammy in 1983 (it did not), I've come up with the following:
In 1981, Solti's CSO M2 won three(!) Grammies: best classical album, best orchestral performance, and best producer (James Mallinson).
In 1983, Solti's CSO M9 won two Grammies: best classical album and best orchestral performance.
In 1992, most remarkably, the Best Orchestral Performance Grammy was won by... envelope please... Bernstein's live Berlin recording of M9 on DG! That recording is many things, but there's no way—with a major missed entrance and many other less significant ensemble and pitch issues—it could have been the "best orchestral performance" of that or any other year. Of course, it was done as a sort of final tribute to Lenny, but still...
James
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The unfortunate thing about the Grammies (at least for the classical category) is that the awards are based on subjective evaluation, not objective. I believe there are no more awards given for a classical category by the Grammies themselves anymore due to lack of interest by the public in the idiom. So the classical world now has to hold its own awards, and hopefully, these are judged on objective content.
Wade
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Look at this photo. It's ffrr:
In 1981, Solti's CSO M2 won three(!) Grammies: best classical album, best orchestral performance, and best producer (James Mallinson).
In 1983, Solti's CSO M9 won two Grammies: best classical album and best orchestral performance.
James
Um.... it makes me feel like revisiting these Chicago recordings.
Just expect another heads-up from me ;D ;D ;D :-*.
John,
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Speaking of objectivity in criticism...I just don't believe there is any! It's all purely subjective :o
--Todd
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My copy of Solti/LSO/Decca M3rd arrived today.
My previous copy of this recording was of some unknown origin so sounded pretty bad. But this one blows me away! :o
What an orchestra! What gorgeous sound!
It just demonstrates the excellence of the state-of-the-art recording technique Decca engineers owned in the 60s.
Interpretively, I have few quibbles about Solti's conducting. Perhaps the post horn solo in III. could have been touch more distant. If I am correct, the harp glissando near the end of III. sounds like at double the original speed. OTOH, the finale, under 20 min., doesn't sound rushed thanks to Solti's careful, well judged, and beautifully proportioned pacing. Helen Watts sings beautifully and hauntingly in IV.
I like Solti's M1st, Resurrection and M9th with LSO very much and ditto this Mahler Third.
John,
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I must add that the trombone solo in I. (by Denis Wick?) is outstanding.
He generates deep and firm sound from the instrument, a bit loud (but that could be Solti's instruction) but always kept in touch with the orchestra.
And Decca engineers captured it in the great ffrr sound.
Timings are
I. 32.52
II. 10.15
III. 17.21
IV. 9.37
V. 4.12
VI. 19.13
total 93.46
As you can see, only VI. is out of the norm which is 22-25 min.
John,
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and the william lang 'post horn' solo is fine. on the horenstein/lso m3 lang used a fluegelhorn for the solo.
dj
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My copy of Solti/LSO/Decca M3rd arrived today.
My previous copy of this recording was of some unknown origin so sounded pretty bad. But this one blows me away! :o
What an orchestra! What gorgeous sound!
It just demonstrates the excellence of the state-of-the-art recording technique Decca engineers owned in the 60s.
Interpretively, I have few quibbles about Solti's conducting. Perhaps the post horn solo in III. could have been touch more distant. If I am correct, the harp glissando near the end of III. sounds like at double the original speed. OTOH, the finale, under 20 min., doesn't sound rushed thanks to Solti's careful, well judged, and beautifully proportioned pacing. Helen Watts sings beautifully and hauntingly in IV.
I like Solti's M1st, Resurrection and M9th with LSO very much and ditto this Mahler Third.
John,
Thanks for your thoughts John! I can't wait to hear this!!
--Todd
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and the william lang 'post horn' solo is fine. on the horenstein/lso m3 lang used a fluegelhorn for the solo.
dj
David,
You're quite right. The post horn solo is beautifully done too. I just wish it had been placed a little further in the stage.
John,
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All things considered, for me Solti's LSO M3rd is the best middle-of-the-road version in the most authentic sound. Not that it lacks insights or intuition.But it also sounds more direct, purer, less sophisticated, less manipulated and labored than any other recording I've heard. It reaches my heart deeply and straightforwardly. In many ways, I think that's what this music all requires.
John,