Author Topic: New M6 - Haitink/CSO  (Read 12046 times)

Offline chris

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New M6 - Haitink/CSO
« on: March 24, 2008, 01:17:12 PM »
To be released as an SACD Hybrid or regular CD on April 8 (the same day as Gergiev's LSO M6).

Timings:
I:  25:55
II:  14:23
III:  16:12
IV:  34:06


Samples:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001551SSW/ref=dm_sp_alb?ie=UTF8&qid=1206364339&sr=8-10


I attended one of the concerts and thought the performance was positively devastating.  It will be interesting to see how it translates to CD. 

Offline John Kim

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Re: New M6 - Haitink/CSO
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2008, 02:27:25 PM »
The timings look very similar to Haitink's London performance in 2002. It was very slow (as the timings suggest) but one of the most completely realized, most cumulatively devastating M6th I ever heard.

John,

Offline Leo K

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Re: New M6 - Haitink/CSO
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2008, 04:47:53 PM »
Great news!!!!!!!!!

I second John's review of the Haitink live LSO M6...indeed it is my top M6.


--Todd

Offline John Kim

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Re: New M6 - Haitink/CSO
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2008, 05:06:20 PM »
The audio samples sound pretty good to me. I noticed that the Andante movt. clock's just over 16 min. as compared to the London concert where it was stretched to 18 or 19 min. (if my memory is correct). This is good news.

Now Mr. Haitink, when are you going to record Mahler's Ninth Symphony again? You've recorded M1-M7 multiple times but refused to rerecord the Ninth or the Eight for that matter. Your analog RCO version of M9th was fine but we are all waiting to hear your latest thoughts on the symphony ??? Now that you've produced stunning M3rd and M6th with CSO, please consider recording it with the orchestra ;D.

John,

Offline sperlsco

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Re: New M6 - Haitink/CSO
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2008, 07:36:18 PM »
Wow, nearly 26' for the first movement!  :o  That should be interesting.  I wonder if the finale's timing includes applause? 
Scott

Offline chris

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Re: New M6 - Haitink/CSO
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2008, 08:34:56 PM »
The audio samples sound pretty good to me. I noticed that the Andante movt. clock's just over 16 min. as compared to the London concert where it was stretched to 18 or 19 min. (if my memory is correct). This is good news.

Now Mr. Haitink, when are you going to record Mahler's Ninth Symphony again? You've recorded M1-M7 multiple times but refused to rerecord the Ninth or the Eight for that matter. Your analog RCO version of M9th was fine but we are all waiting to hear your latest thoughts on the symphony ??? Now that you've produced stunning M3rd and M6th with CSO, please consider recording it with the orchestra ;D.

John,

Not likely to happen (with the CSO) anytime soon - the only CSO/Mahler that Haitink is conducting in the near future are M1 in May and M2 in November.

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: New M6 - Haitink/CSO
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2008, 05:24:16 AM »
Sorry to be a spoil-sport but   .    .    .  I have a copy of this already, and I think it's positively awful! - possibly the worst M6 to come out in years. Simply put, it's just too slow all over. The andante movement doesn't quite reach 17 minutes; and yet, it sounds more like 19 to me. The scherzo is ponderous, but without anything sounding particularly threatening, much less frightening. A perfect example of what's wrong with this performance can be observed in the finale.

In the slow introductory section of the finale, there's about a 12 bar passage that's a slow, funereal sounding chorale for the low brass and low woodwinds. Haitink takes this passage at an unbelievable crawl. And yet, when he gets to the one spot where he could make a HUGE ritard to great effect - the finale major chord to minor chord meltdown (just before the start of the fast music) - he just goes right through it. Needless to say, in all of the fast sections, the Chicago brass play spectacularly well. But when you finally reach the first hammerstroke - and, by the way, Haitink fails to build up the tempo in the highly chromatic passage (halfstep harmonies) leading up to that first hammerstroke - it's sadly underwhelming.

Compare how this same passage sounds when played by the Concertgebouw (both Chailly and Jansons), where the hammerstrokes are so strong that they don't even bother with Mahler's optional reinforcement on the second hammerstroke (bass drum, cymbals, tam-tam). Here's another example of Haitink's less than stellar conducting  .    .   . 

Towards the end of the finale, there's a seven bar passage (in 4/4) which sounds like a (false) victory parade. Haitink really has the horns belt this march melody out; which is a good thing. But the percussion underneath the horns and violins (violins have a sweeping countertheme) are - once again - very underwhelming. If you're going to make the horns belt out that passage - so that it sounds as though you're observing a military parade right from the sidewalk - why not resort back to Mahler's original orchestration from the first version (trombones double the horns, and there's more percussion)? At the very least, make sure that ALL of the percussionists play up to the level of the horns. Otherwise, the parade sounds like a bunch of loud horns going by, but with too few drummers in the band.

In the first movement, I like that Haitink is slow and grim with the initial march. But he fails, in my view, to make a strong enough contrast with the second subject: the so-called "Alma" theme. Compare this to how it's done on the Ivan Fischer M6, where the Alma theme comes bursting right out of the box. Haitink also fails to build much excitement or momentum at the end of the first movement. Just as things are in so many passages from his CSO M3, there's lots of loudness from the brass, but without any genuine excitement or momentum. The CSO percussion so often fail to take over at the crest of major climaxes - you just get more loud brass (and granted, they play very well).

To my mind, this has absolutely nothing over the old Barbirolli M6. Barbirolli doesn't have an expo. repeat, but that just might be a good thing with an interpretation of the opening movement that is so slow and grim. And although Barbirolli is less than a minute faster in the andante movement, he holds my attention far better than Haitink does here (the slow movement is excellent on Haitink's Berlin remake). In the finale, Barbirolli is two minutes faster than Haitink (and Barbirolli isn't fast by any means). But those two minutes make a huge difference!

In fact, the only other M6/IV that reaches 34 minutes - that I know of -  is the Sinopoli. But the Sinopoli strikes me as being more decadent and interesting sounding (can't stand his 19 minute slow movement, however).

Again, I think that part of the problem is the hall, as well as the recording itself. Orchestra Hall is a bit shallow from front to back. There are passages where it sounds as though everybody is seated together in the front row. As is so often the case with the strong CSO trumpets, they often times make little or no distinction between different gradations of forte. And once again, the CSO woodwinds don't impress me, with the clarinets sounding particularly funky in spots (listen to how the CSO clarinets go completely flat in pitch at the end of Haitink's M3/I). Maybe these performances were incredibly impressive live (albeit slow), but something's just not translating with these James Mallinson recordings. Let's discuss Haitink.

On balance, I really feel that Haitink's best M6 is the very first one that he recorded with the Concertgebouw. His Berlin remake was pretty dull in the first two movements, but the andante moderato and finale were excellent - far better than here! For the CSO, I really think that the Abbado is a better overall recording, even though the CSO percussion play too far underneath the brass for him as well. At least the Solti M6 is fast and exciting, if slightly brainless (also better recorded). I also think that Haitink's recent M6 with the L'Orchestre National de France (Naive) - while being far from perfect - is more interesting and exciting than this one.

Barry

« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 06:11:01 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline John Kim

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Re: New M6 - Haitink/CSO
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2008, 06:25:24 AM »
...too bad your reaction is so discouraging. But I'd still put my fingers crossed...until the day I get my copy. All I can say is that your overall description of this new release fits into Haitink's LSO concert as well, but I found that performance utterly convincing and gripping albeit it was very slow; if I had tried to identify the meaning of the music and Mahlerian idioms in its tempo my attention would probably have drifted away easily. But Haitink's strength in this music making was the overall architecture and the cumulative impact with which he patiently but brilliantly executed his concepts. I'll stand by this judgement until I hear the Chicago recording.

John,

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: New M6 - Haitink/CSO
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2008, 06:43:47 AM »
Whatever. I didn't particularly like the CSO M3 either - which he had recorded much better, numerous times already. This M6 sounds a bit better, in terms of sonics, but I think it's musically even worse. There's just too little contrast in the first movement, and the scherzo should at least be somewhat spooky sounding - not just ponderous. To each their own.

Barry

Offline Leo K

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Re: New M6 - Haitink/CSO
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2008, 01:27:32 PM »
Yes, Barry's description does indeed sound like the great LSO concert from 2002.  I hold my breath with anticipation!!!!! 

Based on Barry's review, it sounds as if Haitink is still conceptually seeing this work as a vast architectural canvas, a work to build with aniticipation and patience.  Haitink's CSO M3 is also one my top M3's, so I'm really looking forward to this myself...I also keep my fingers crossed.

--Todd
« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 01:38:32 PM by Leo K »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: New M6 - Haitink/CSO
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2008, 05:39:51 PM »
Look, "vast architectural canvases" are fine and dandy, as long as they work. But it ain't workin' when you lose interest long before the fight is over. That was precisely my point regarding the Haitink/CSO M3: the brass chorale near the end of M3/VI was excellent, but it meant next to nothing when the rest of the performance was so snoozy. Even Michelle De Young didn't sound particular great this time out.

A "vast architectural canvas" ain't workin' when you make a huge meal out of the introductory material at the start of the finale - with little emphasis on the scary stuff, by the way - and you finally get to the first hammerstroke, and then "splat" - something hugely underwhelming happens; and then you get flooded with tons more loud brass, without any real understanding as to WHY you're having to hear tons more  loud brass (and I'm a brass player,folks!).

I'm willing to bet that that Haitink/LSO M6 that you're all so excited about, is somehow more interesting or "alive" sounding than this Chicago one. And, I'm going to bet on this too: as much as Gergiev may be an overworked nut-case, at least his LSO M6 will be fast and exciting, with an andante moderato that actually observes that tempo description. It'll also be recorded every bit as well as this CSO M6 - or close to it -  since it's also being recorded by James Mallinson.

With Haitink, I just keep hearing this constant desire to turn Mahler into Bruckner, and that just ain't right - period! As I've said numerous times - and Hurwitz was the one who first said it - Haitink was best with his Mahler when he hadn't yet formed an opinion.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 05:54:21 PM by barry guerrero »

Offline John Kim

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Re: New M6 - Haitink/CSO
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2008, 06:06:42 PM »
Barry,

One question:

How did you get the copy so early before the official release date?

Can I get one too through your help? :-*

John,

Offline Leo K

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Re: New M6 - Haitink/CSO
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2008, 06:20:57 PM »
Yes, I'll have to actually hear the new Haitink CSO M6...it is possible the LSO performance won't be equaled. 

I hear a totally different CSO M3 though.  It's not snoozy to me!!  It's very well played, controlled, with a drama that unfolds with a great force.


--Todd

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: New M6 - Haitink/CSO
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2008, 07:53:37 AM »
"it's very well played, controlled, with a drama that unfolds with a great force."

But I see that as part of the problem: the fact that it's both "controlled", but unfolds "with a great force". You also need some forward momentum, and there simply wasn't enough color, contrast, or much of anything else, in the pivotal "bim-bam" choral movement. To me, "controlled" + "great force" = Bruckner.

Look, here's a great comparison to make: just compare the start of the development section of the first movement on the Haitink/CSO M3/I - right where the double basses and celli play their soli passage - to the same passage on the Zinman M3. There's no comparison! Continue to the start of the of recapitulation, which is the reiteration of the symphony's opening horn fanfare. Listen to how much more exciting and alive sounding the Zinman is, during that passage where the low brass are playing their ridiculous sounding koo-koo clock-like, octave jumps; while the clarinets belt out their equally ridiculous sounding folk melodies - all of which is accompanied by tambourine (should be doubled). Then listen to how much more momentum Zinman builds up through the "southern storm" fantasy-like, climactic passage; and how he has the offstage snare drum solo played at a tempo that's much closer to that of the  horn fanfare (on the Haitink, the offstage snare drum solo is waaaay too fast). This is a real Charles Ives-ian moment, where the low strings are finishing up at the old, faster tempo, while the offstage drum enters at the new, slower tempo. And for goodness sake, give the Zinman a fair chance by turning the volume way up - you'll find that things are plenty forceful enough (seldom a problem with Mahler), and that the balances are actually much better.

I could go on and on, but I'll answer a question instead: I have the Haitink/CSO M6 because the Harmonia Mundi representative gave me a promotional copy. When I saw Haitink's absurdly long timings, I warned him that I may very well end up liking the Gergiev M6 more, which is coming out at the same time, and is also distributed by Harmonia Mundi. With M6, I'll take ridiculously fast over ridiculously slow any day, assuming that everything else is about equal.

I didn't mention that I had a copy of the Haitink/CSO M6 for a pretty good reason, I believe:  (old saying) if don't have something good to say about something, don't say anything at all. I wanted to study it more first, but playing it again hasn't changed my mind about it.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2008, 07:56:58 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline sperlsco

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Re: New M6 - Haitink/CSO
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2008, 05:29:15 PM »
I warned him that I may very well end up liking the Gergiev M6 more, which is coming out at the same time, and is also distributed by Harmonia Mundi. With M6, I'll take ridiculously fast over ridiculously slow any day, assuming that everything else is about equal.

Please post your impressions of the Gergiev M6.  Knowing me, I'll probably buy the Haitink at some time or another, if only to support the CSO releasing SACD's (your review and the timings are REALLY scaring me away, though).  OTOH, I really can't get myself excited about Gergiev or the LSO in M6.  A good review may sway me though! 
Scott

 

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