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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: techniquest on January 01, 2008, 04:16:04 PM
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Well being the first month of the year, it kind of gives us a good excuse to listen to and compare the recordings we have of Mahlers first symphony (with a gentle nod to Leo K's M8-a-thon idea).
I still have the first M1 I ever owned; a cheap vinyl recording on Classics for Pleasure with Gaetano Delogu conducting the LPO. It was specifically recorded for CfP in 1976 in the days when the LPO was sponsored by the cigarette people WD & HO Wills (how times have changed!). The LP cover has their logo displayed on both the front and the back - how the fragile minds of tiny children must have been corrupted and traumatised back then on glancing this horror in the record shop....But I digress; I've just given the disc a whirl for the first time in many, many years.
It's an optimistic, lively performance with really lovely sounding horns and a bright sound altogether apart from the tympani which sound just a little dampened. The second movement is faster than I am used to now, but the funerial third has just about the right pace. It dies away and I can still remember jumping out of my skin when the stand cymbal heralded the 'ff' orchestral outburst that opened the 4th! The muted brass here sounds great. The quiet sections prior to the central climax and the ending gave me the broody, mysterious sense that I have always admired in Mahler, but the ending itself is great with the typanists and triangle really gunning for it in a real romp to the closing page! I wonder if this performance ever made it to CD.
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Yes, i quite like the idea of spending a month on various versiions of one symphony.
Delogu does something Bernstein does, and B.'s version was the BBC building a Lib. choice a few months ago.
Ivor
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After getting Zinman's M3 for Christmas, I soon purchased his M1. So, I'm kinda on an M1 kick now. I listened to Boulez's M1 with Chicago to see if it stood up to the newcomer, and I confess that even though I'm not a big Boulez fan, I'm in no rush to get rid of it. Chicago doesn't sound as punchy and overly muscular as they did for so long. I don't know what version I'll haul out next...maybe one of Haitink's.
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The Boulez/CSO M1 is excellent, and much better recorded than the Boulez/CSO M9. However, the scherzo is awfully fast. I prefer it slower, with more swing and lilt to it - more rusticity, if you will.
Barry
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In keeping with the theme, today I bought the Herbert Kegel / Dresden Philharmonic recording on Edel Classics in a second-hand store (yes, ever the cheap-skate). Thus far I have listened only to the first two movements and found the slow, almost ponderous tempo and hesitation in the rhythm most alarming during the beginning of the the second movement. Still, it's different I suppose. I wonder what's going to happen in movements 3 & 4.....
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So far I've enjoyed Delagu - very spritely, and Ancerl - very warm, thoughtful and wise.
Currently on, Kirsten Flagstad in LeFGesellen. She's trying not to sound like it's opera, with mixed results. :-\
Ivor
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Wow, glad I didn't spend too much on that Kegel M1. What an eccentric reading! I bought it on the strength of his superb recording of Shostakovichs 'Execution of Stepan Razin' on Phillips with the Leipzig orchestra, but this is nowhere near that, not by a long way. It is strangely recorded, in places it almost feels amateur - the sections and individual instruments have no depth to them, and the cymbals are simply horrid! In parts of the quiet sections of the 4th movement the strings have an almost synthetic vibrato - it sounds as if the sound engineers have slid the volume control up and down very fast! In another section, the solo trumpet is so far 'up-front' that it sounds more like a trumpet concerto. No, I can't be doing with it, sorry but for me at least, this M1 is a no-go.
I have plenty more of them to discuss however...
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Another slightly more obscure M1. This time it's the often undervalued combo of the Ljubljana Symphony Orchestra under Anton Nanut.
This reading opens very slowly, the high strings chord almost 'fading in' rather than being a definite start. The woodwinds and horns which gradually enter as the bars progress are just as they should be and when the 'sunshine breakfast' theme starts, it's delightful and optimistic with audible harp and delicate strings and flutes. :) All is quite acceptible until the last few pages when the whole orchestra finally reaches ff - the horn 'whoops' are really weak and it feels that the whole movement has lost it's impetus somewhere in the quieter meanderings of 3 or four minutes ago...
The second movement bounces in at just the right speed with bright upper strings and lovely 'pinched nose' muted horns, but once again it's the climax of this first section which lets it all down; no accelerando and a lacklustre crescendo to final chord. The second, slower, section of this movement works quite well and, once it gets back to the original theme and heads towards conclusion, this time there's a little more 'oomph' in the orchestra and it feels a bit more satisfactory. So on to movement 3...
The solo double bass is too quiet (pp rather than p) as is the bassoon which follows it, but thankfully the whole of the orchestra as each part enters in the minor canon keeps this very quiet dynamic and it's only when the 'gipsy' theme enters that things change. This section works nicely. The next part which opens with the harp reminiscent of the 5th's adagietto yet to come, is gentle but missing something as is the recapitulation of the canon and gipsy theme, until the whole thing sinks back into the steady but slightly too fast, quiet timpani beat with very quiet tam-tam (strain hard and you'll just catch it)...
Kaboom! The orchestra bursts in, but oh dear. This is playing the notes and little else. It's pedestrian, measured, clipped even. Once the noisy stuff dies down, the orchestra seems more relaxed in gentler, quiet section that follows and the quality of playing increases. When the main (triumphant?) theme comes in on that really surprising chord change not long after the 2 loud tam-tam strokes (yes it's there) it almost works but for a really annoying trumpet that seems to have found a microphone all of it's own! This dies down to bring in a recapitulation of the symphonies opening with quiet brass and woodwind flourishes which really are excellent. And that's just about the last time the orchestra plays with anything like a professional sound. The climax and coda are simply awful; plodding, not quite together, almost afraid of the music.
I'm quite a supporter of recordings by less-than-top-notch bands and this recording is part of a set of Mahlers symphonies by Slovenian outfits which includes Nanut and the Ljubljana in much better form in the 8th and Milan Horvaths' rather splendid 'Resurrection' with the Slovenian Philharmonic, about which I shall tell more in February...
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Thanks for that excellant review...and what a great thread this is.
--Todd
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I don't have much useful to contribute to this topic. I very much liked the recent David Zinman M1. For me, it struck the right balance between outdoor rusticity and urbane sophistication (similar to the Kubelik, I'd say, but with better sound). I also liked the relatively quick tempo for "Blumine", which was tacked on as an addendum.
I also own these, which means I really like them: Kletzki/Vienna Phil. (terrible cut near the end of the finale, though); Hiroshi Wakasugi/Staatskapelle Dresden (very rustic - wonderful playing); Jarvi/Royal Scottish Nat. orch. (slow scherzo; fast "frere jacques" in minor); Kobayshi/Czech Phil. (another one that strikes a good balance between rusticity and urbanity); Chailly/Concertgebouw; Bernstein/Concertgebouw (from the box); Hans Vonk/St. Louis S. O. (a real sleeper); Tennstedt/CSO (a bit too slow for me, but great playing); Giulini/CSO (my favorite of the various CSO ones).
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Pretty soon I will finally hear the Zinman and MTT M1 on SACD, which I bought but I haven't heard yet due to my current M4 obsession.
My favorite M1's are the Bernstein/RCO and the two Horenstein's, and the Adler with the Vienna Orch...love the "out of tune" beginning of the third movement on that one.
I regret selling off Rattle's M1 awhile ago...I now think it's a worthy performance.
-Todd
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Hey guys, forget about M1st! It's time to order Macal/CPO/Exton M9th today ;D
John,
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Hey guys, forget about M1st! It's time to order Macal/CPO/Exton M9th today ;D
John,
;D I ordered mine!
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I used Radio 3's website 'Listen Again' feature last night to listen to a live M1 with the BBC Philharmonic under Vassily Sinaisky; it's really rather good.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/classical/listen/mahler_symphony1.shtml
There is also an excellent commentary on M1 with examples in the 'Discovering Music Archive' which si well worth listening to.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/audioarchive.shtml
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I listened to the commentary on M1. I liked it, as I appreciate any attempt to talk about the music itself, and less about biographical baggage. It's clearly a step in the right direction. The trio section of the scherzo is a tad too slow, however. But to counter that slight miscalculation (to me, anyway), he doesn't drag the "Frere Jacques in minor" start to the third movement. It's often times played waaaaay too slow. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
Barry
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Philharmonia Orchestra / Benjamin Zander (Telarc)
This isn't going to be quite as 'in depth' as the Nanut run-down above mainly because this one does so much more right!
As the symphony opens, you can almost see Mahler appear from the mists that contain all the music that happened before him; a magical, mysterious, intense opening with toots and parps from the winds just as they should be and with the sun coming out (the 'sunshine breakfast' bit) with just the right intensity. The later quiet section with quietly thudding bass drum is so scary that it almost makes you wonder if Mahler knew what was going to happen in the future - I don't know why but something there reminded me of the irregular thudding beat in the opening of the 9th...As the movement develops to it's climax, the horn whoops make you cheer and the whole thing winds up with a ton of energy.
The second movement is just the right tempo for me. It has the power when it needs, but overall feels fresh and almost delicate at times. As, oddly, does the third. The 'frere jaques' isn't too slow (well I don't think it is), and the gipsy dance section has a lightness about it that isn't nearly as 'vulgar' as some performances I have heard.
The 4th opens with fff muted brass that sounds like a squealing pig and immediately we're in frantic, new, scary territory. The brass is powerful and the strings double-time backing is well balanced while the bass drum is huge! (would sound great in a childs Vauxhall Nova!!!). When all this dies down, the romantic feel isn't too slow or slushy, but to-the-point and when it dies away it really does go quiet. That's one thing to watch with this otherwise very fine recording, the dynamic range is vast - I had to alter the volume control a few times so as to hear the quiet bits but not blow the walls down during the loud bits! I would also have preferred a better tam-tam too - come on it only gets 2 big hits in this symphony and it's at a key point!
When the big theme comes in for it's first show, there's plenty of floor rumbling from the bass drum, fine horns and trumpet that isn't too intrusive. This too dies away and brings us back to sounds from the symphony's opening during which I was very impressed with the flute and piccolo interplay. Some of this quiet section is slower than I have been used to, and I rather like it. It doesn't drag, but it enables the music to 'sing'.
A tad too much hesitation maybe justbefore the 'big theme' returns, but when it does it's great! And then (oh dear) the very end is just too slow. Damn!! Other than this, I like the preformance. The recording is top-notch and the bonus is a terrific discussion by Zander of M1 (and the Songs of the Wayfarer filler) on a 79 minute 2nd disc.
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Although it's a shameless plug for my hometown orchestra, any Mahler 1st nuts looking for the obscure might wish to try Hans Vonk's rendition with the Saint Louis Symphony. I like it a lot.
Movement timings:
I. 15:36
II 7:38
III 10:22
IV 18:21
TT 51:59
If you're interested in it, don't go through Amazon, which only has some way overpriced used ones listed. Instead, order through the orchestra itself: https://www.themillergroup.com/saintlouissymphony/order/Merchandise/order/merch_list.asp
And let me know what you think...even if you find it not to your liking!
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Although it's a shameless plug for my hometown orchestra, any Mahler 1st nuts looking for the obscure might wish to try Hans Vonk's rendition with the Saint Louis Symphony. I like it a lot.
Movement timings:
I. 15:36
II 7:38
III 10:22
IV 18:21
TT 51:59
If you're interested in it, don't go through Amazon, which only has some way overpriced used ones listed. Instead, order through the orchestra itself: https://www.themillergroup.com/saintlouissymphony/order/Merchandise/order/merch_list.asp
And let me know what you think...even if you find it not to your liking!
Oh fine, after your praise here and from your older post about, I'm sold. I just put an order in for the M1 and the Bruckner 7.
I keep meaning to get down to St. Louis to catch a symphony - I'd like to see the Dr. Atomic Symphony, but my wife hated hated hated the opera.
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I hope you'll like it!
I love Adams' music. He's not only my favorite living composers, but one of my favorite composers, period. However, I heard the premiere of the Dr. Atomic Symphony over the internet when it was performed at the Proms this summer, and I was a little underwhelmed. I admire the fact Adams told the St. Louis Symphony that he needed more time to complete the Symphony version. However, judging by the radio burn, he could've used more time. Perhaps the orchestra, (which I think was the BBC SO) didn't have the music in their bones yet, or maybe Adams isn't the best advocate of the work. But we'll see. Maybe hearing this live will be a mind changer. Robertson's a wonderful interpretor of Adams, so I'll look forward to him hopefully changing my mind. If not, I'll still get to hear the rarely performed Sibelius masterpiece, Tapiola!
Now the one I'm really looking forward to is when the SLSO does Adams' The Dharma at Big Sur in April. It's a fantastic work, that kinda reminds me of Mahler's fascination with the Far East.
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The Hans Vonk M1 is really very, very good. The Slatkin M5 is also quite good.
Barry
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Started a bit of a Mahlerthon with that Nanut.
my take is rather different. it seems to me a very pastoral interpretation for much of the way -
gentle, sweet. A very easy-going I; and II, where maybe he doesn't get too excited at the end of
the first section is cos he's saving it for the end of the movement; III keeps that mood going. I'm
happy with a pp dynamic, and there are some lovely moments; IV starts with a great explosion. I
agree a little about the trumpet being very prominent. Mind you, that was one of Mahler's fingerprints, the trumpet really leading the wind section. I prob. get too enthusiastic - I just don't really notice absolute imprecision, and the whole performance ends quite Horenstein-style with a stately, pride-of-youth coda, and the last 2 chords more separated a la Steinberg. Earlier some wonderfully controlled snarly brass. Not surprised a Virgo was in charge. :-[ not.
Soon for another performance not in Vincent great discography. So far, I seem to have lit upon 3.
Ivor
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I hope you'll like it!
I love Adams' music. He's not only my favorite living composers, but one of my favorite composers, period. However, I heard the premiere of the Dr. Atomic Symphony over the internet when it was performed at the Proms this summer, and I was a little underwhelmed. I admire the fact Adams told the St. Louis Symphony that he needed more time to complete the Symphony version. However, judging by the radio burn, he could've used more time. Perhaps the orchestra, (which I think was the BBC SO) didn't have the music in their bones yet, or maybe Adams isn't the best advocate of the work. But we'll see. Maybe hearing this live will be a mind changer. Robertson's a wonderful interpretor of Adams, so I'll look forward to him hopefully changing my mind. If not, I'll still get to hear the rarely performed Sibelius masterpiece, Tapiola!
Now the one I'm really looking forward to is when the SLSO does Adams' The Dharma at Big Sur in April. It's a fantastic work, that kinda reminds me of Mahler's fascination with the Far East.
It's offtopic, and I'm quoting my own post, but judging by these program notes on the SLSO's website, Adams did revise the Dr. Atomic Symphony score, so maybe it will be better than what I heard over the net.
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Just finished a rare treat, Joseph Kreutzer and the Royal Danish SO (it says on the Italian Joker label )it wasn't in Mouret's discography last time I looked. Anyone know more?
From about 1971. Quite quick (c.47 m), refreshing , bright, well- controlled I thought, lovely big finish - but waddu I know.
Ivor
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a Danish orchestra on the Italian Joker label? Do you think it could be ficticious labeling? That does happen, once in a while.
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Could be tho' Mouret has a Kreutzer M5 on Joker. And the label of mine refers to that perf. too.
I wouldn't know where to begin to track down the origins.
In the 60s, there was Barrington-Coupe (of Hattogate dame) label called Fidelio, which produced a marvellous Tchaik 4 with the "Danzig Phil" and "Felix Heiss". Love to know who they are.
Ivor
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Tonight heard gergiev's live M1/LSO.
Quite passionate. The tymapani have an over-great time throughout. Like a true Taurus, G. emphasises the bass line. it's all rather overdone. The tymp obliterates everything else in the last phrase of !, but it does a tremendous steady cresc. through the last four chords at the end. Poor old clarinet plays a horrible note right near the beginning. Somewhat unsubtle too often, tho exciting.
Ivor
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That clarinet was countered beautifully by the erroneous trumpet parp right near the end! I quite liked Gergievs treatment until the final movement which sounded very disjointed and almost became a tympani concerto with the strings and woods in particular being drowned out in the final pages altogether. However, it's one I'll probably buy when it's released on the LSO Live label later in the year (along - whoopee - with all the others thus creating a cycle!). I am particularly interested in how M3 is going to sound tomorrow - I'm really into M3 at the moment and have spent far too much money on rather too many recordings!
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That clarinet was countered beautifully by the erroneous trumpet parp right near the end! I quite liked Gergievs treatment until the final movement which sounded very disjointed and almost became a tympani concerto with the strings and woods in particular being drowned out in the final pages altogether. However, it's one I'll probably buy when it's released on the LSO Live label later in the year (along - whoopee - with all the others thus creating a cycle!). I am particularly interested in how M3 is going to sound tomorrow - I'm really into M3 at the moment and have spent far too much money on rather too many recordings!
Try to find the Rogner M3 I reviewed in the other thread...it's incredible, especially the first four movements.
--Todd
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Arrgh no! Not more expenditure - and I read that thread and found there are other M3's I didn't know about that might need to be found...
Maybe I'll wait until March cos that's when we should schedule an M3-A-Thon!!
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:)
I dig man...and I feel your pain!! March is a great time for an M3 Fest.
--Todd
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Thanks for the reports. Pleave give us another update after the M3 concert. That's another Mahler symphony that the LSO has done about 50 million times. I prefer the MTT/LSO M3 to his S.F. remake. Naturally, the best LSO M3 on disc is the Horenstein. In fact, it's among his best recordings, period.
Barry