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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: oscar on June 27, 2008, 05:45:48 PM
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In Japan they are remastering some of the catalogue into SHM_CD´s that are supposed to be of superior quality. Karajan and Bruckner, Bernbstain and Brahms etc. Anyone has heard any of these releases so as to tell us about their quality ?
best regards,
Oscar.
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What does SHM stand for?
I've seen Sieghart/APO/Exton M10th limited SACD edition at a ridiculously high price (something like 35,000 Yen?). Is this so called SHM CD??
John,
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I see the complete Bernstein/DG Mahler cycle will be remastered in this format:
http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2746907
32,000 Yen (about $300.00)
John,
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"SHM-CD" stands for "Super High Material Compact Disc" which simply means the material on the data side of the disc is now slightly different kind of a polycarbonate plastic, which the owners of the patent (JVC Jpn and Universal Japan) claim brings audible improvements to the sound because somehow the laser pickup assembly of the CD player (these are no SACDs for sure) can now "better track" the zeros and the ones coded on the disc. The plastic on the back of the disc is said to be more "transparent" and just the same the music, too, will now be similarly "more transparent" because of this "better tracking" ability of the laser. That's the claim, that is. Note that no scientific evidence has been offered on this to all that I've seen; it's just a claim that to me very much falls into the domain of magic: a certain property (the plastic coating, if that claimed property really is there to begin with) in one thing brings into existence a similar property in another, completely different and separate thing (sound). Voodoo, for instance, is based on this belief, as is homeopathy (the law of similarities, in a way).
(Can anyone credibly explain how that could be possible even in theory?)
So to me this sounds really like the worst kind of gimmickry. Digital isn't like analog, where differences in tracking ability exist and matter. Come on. Moreover, those getting these once-more-must-rebuy-everything-all-over-again issues tell that the tapes used for them are in fact the previous-generation masters; for instance, in the case of DG the ones predating the OIBM remasters (such as in The Originals series and basically all DG reissues to date since 1994, or the 96/24 transfers done by Philips, Decca, and Sony during the last ten years or so). So, if that's true, it seems the tapes the companies promoting and manufacturing SHM-CDs have licenced out are those old first-generation digital transfers. What that seems to mean, if all that's true, is that the big recording companies simply didn't even want to give them access to either the master tapes or the latest transfers they have themselves done. Whatever that says about their faith in the "new materials."
It's your money so if you purchase one of these discs (sold at more than twice the later-generation remastered "normal material" reissues of the same) I'd be really curious to hear your comments if you can listen to comparatively and at the same sound pressure level (remasters are usually done at varying levels, so that one version is simpy a bit louder than another and therefore sounds audibly "preferable" to just about everyone on earth). Pending anything like a reliable report (double blind test, identical levels) I'll continue to strongly suspect that this is but another attempt to milk money from music freaks prepared to pursue the path of perfection no matter what. Audio hobbyists and music freaks like to dabble with little improvements and where there is a chance (this costs only 2800 yen/disc which is very doable) they want to go ahead and try it out. Buying new speakers that would really make a difference costs much, much more and the wife would notice.
"I may be wrong" etc.
PT
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You're probably right. But the best proof will only come from long and serious, "blindfold" A/B comparisons. BTW, according to my currency converter, 32,000 Yen would be about 325 U.S. Dollars.
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Unfortunately, no amount of blindfold A/B comparisons will matter to the "converted" audiophiles. They currently believe that the following make an audible difference in improving the audio quality of their equipment:
1. A $5,000 power cable -- that's right, the cable that is used to plug your amp or CD player into the wall.
2. A $5,000 battery bank to control power going into your equipment
3. That one "topology" of circuitry is superior to another in amplifiers
4. That speaker cables costing thousands of dollars sound better than 16 gauge zip cord (lamp cord) costing a few dollars
5. That using a green magic marker to color around the edge of a CD makes it sound better
6. That tube equipment is inherently superior
I don't wish to defile anyone's religion, but this kind of stuff is just stupid. The creators of these kinds of bogus products never accept A/B comparison testing as accurate or meaningful. And they can never provide any sort of actual measurements that demoinstrate their product is any better than any other.
The funniest example of this is speaker cables. The magician Randi has offered a $1,000,000 prize if anyone can distinguish the sound of $7,200 speaker cables from the ubiquitous Monster cable of the same length in a blind A/B test. http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/calling-bullshit/james-randi-offers-1-million-if-audiophiles-can-prove-7250-speaker-cables-are-better-305549.php? (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/calling-bullshit/james-randi-offers-1-million-if-audiophiles-can-prove-7250-speaker-cables-are-better-305549.php?) I wish he had chose plain 16 gauge lamp cord.
This latest SHM-CD sounds to me like the same kind of unsupported market scam as cables. And what do you want to bet that there are no real blind A/B tests forthcoming, that its just a journalist who says "I listened to my RBCD version, then I listened to my SACD version, and then I listened to my new SHM version." Which is, of course, not a test, no matter which version he says he likes best.
Well, okay, rant over.
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The funniest example of this is speaker cables. The magician Randi has offered a $1,000,000 prize if anyone can distinguish the sound of $7,200 speaker cables from the ubiquitous Monster cable of the same length in a blind A/B test.
Even funnier, in fact, is that three notables of a thinly disguised "business friendly" audio site -- two admistrators and one prominent "audiophile" member with a super megabuck system (probably the most exclusive setup on the planet, housed in a separate "listening barn" built specifically for this system) -- in fact decided to accept Randi's challenge. The point was to use the prominent member's own cables, which Randi apparently had allowed. Now, those cables happened to be the Transparent Audio Opus MM's, which retail at $34,000 (yes, that's right, three zeros at the end). These would then be auditioned blind against Randi's supermarket-variety off-the-shelf Monster wires (that probably retailed between $100 and $200). The audio site team, as they stated ahead of time, had "absolutely no doubt" that the prominent member (OK, let's give the name for him: "MikeL") would be able to tell which one is which "every time," as the $34K Transparents were clearly such superior products, as witnessed easily and on numerous earlier occasions by the team of our confident challengers.
Now, they wanted to rehearse the test situation a little before hitting to road to Randi, and, using MikeL's own system (which would make the test even easier, they assumed), proceeded to do a dress rehearsal using the two chosen cables. The result? They had to stop the tests as they turned out to be totally meaningless: MikeL (nor anyone else involved) could not tell at all the difference in the blind test segment. During the "sighted test" when they saw which cable was "on," they always thought the Opus MM's were a zillion times better, quite clearly. But in the blind test, they could not tell at all which was which and whether the cables had even been swapped.
They've been very quiet about this on the site, so you can learn more of these tests only from other sites, e.g., at www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=941184 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=941184) (a report by a third-party witness present for the tests). MikeL changed his moniker and withdrew from the public, as he said it, to reconsider the point of his audiophile beliefs and the rationale of the entire industry segment.
There was nothing wrong with MikeL's system; I think the cables must have been the cheapest part of it. :D
And what about Randi's test? Our demoralized audio site team went home instead and has stayed there ever since. Discussions about the tests they did and the Randi challenge remain heavily censored on the site, and references to either are quickly deleted or removed out of sight.
Another Randi challenger, the Stereophile magazine equipment "reviewer" Mike Fremer also backed out from Randi's challenge using some obscure profanity-laden last-minute excuse. :'(
I'd say Randi will be able to keep his million dollars.
I wish [Randi] had chose plain 16 gauge lamp cord.
See that link above about the blind test by MikeL & the audio site managers: "I can say now that I am of the opinion that speaker wire basically makes no significant difference in sound quality, given sufficient gauge. Even the 16 gauge extension cord was fantastic." So, shall we make it, say, $3.40 a feet or would you rather gimme $34,000 for the same? Tough call... :-\
PT
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I bought the Decca Karajan recordings, from Japan, in SCH-CD, and compare them with the Decca Legends series(96/24bit).
I thing that SCM are not better in anything. They are the same as the older mastering.
I also have the Mravinsky Tchaikovsky symphonies, but i'm not hear them.
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I bought the Decca Karajan recordings, from Japan, in SCH-CD, and compare them with the Decca Legends series(96/24bit).
I thing that SCM are not better in anything. They are the same as the older mastering.
I also have the Mravinsky Tchaikovsky symphonies, but i'm not hear them.
Now, what is SCH-CD?? And SCM???
John,
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Hi John
obviously its a mistake. It is SHM all the time
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There are currently several Mahler recordings available on this new format. The list includes,
Mehta/VPO/Decca M2
Ozawa/BSO/Philips M5
Karajan/BPO/DG M4,5,6,9 (twice),DLVDE
http://www.jpophelp.com/scripts/newsite/proddetails.asp?listid=JPN-UCCG-9758&showname=1
(this set was released back in Feb. but I didn't know it was in the SHM-CD)
Bernstein/NYPO,RCO,VPO/DG symphonies+lieds
John,
P.S. I am intrigued to get the Karajan set... :'(
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hmv japan have for September releases a lot of titles in SHM.
Among them Stein's Bruckner 2 and 6 with Vienna philharmonic, Schumann and Mozart symphonies with Muti and the Wiener also, Bruckner with Bohm, new year concerts etc.
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hmv japan have for September releases a lot of titles in SHM.
Among them Stein's Bruckner 2 and 6 with Vienna philharmonic, Schumann and Mozart symphonies with Muti and the Wiener also, Bruckner with Bohm, new year concerts etc.
I can already see my pockets getting thinner .... :'( :-[
John,
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I can already see my pockets getting thinner .... :'( :-[
They will get considerably less thin if you go for the Universal-issued newer remasters instead of these new SHM-CDs based on older transfers.
For instance,
- Bruckner by Stein & VPO: 1,077 yen for the Eloquence reissue vs. 2,800 yen for the version with the new plastic on the back.
- Schumann by Muti & VPO: 2,164 yen (or $8 + $3 for shipping = $11 if you buy from Amazon.com) for the Philips Duo reissue vs. 5,600 yen + 1,200 yen for shipping = $65 (!) for the same with the different plastic on the back.
And so on. I'd say save that $54 for music you haven't heard yet.
PT :o
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I can already see my pockets getting thinner .... :'( :-[
They will get considerably less thin if you go for the Universal-issued newer remasters instead of these new SHM-CDs based on older transfers.
For instance,
- Bruckner by Stein & VPO: 1,077 yen for the Eloquence reissue vs. 2,800 yen for the version with the new plastic on the back.
- Schumann by Muti & VPO: 2,164 yen (or $8 + $3 for shipping = $11 if you buy from Amazon.com) for the Philips Duo reissue vs. 5,600 yen + 1,200 yen for shipping = $65 (!) for the same with the different plastic on the back.
And so on. I'd say save that $54 for music you haven't heard yet.
PT :o
No! No! I will get all of the new discs no matter what they cost. I am a Mahler CD maniac! ;D
John,
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No! No! I will get all of the new discs no matter what they cost. I am a Mahler CD maniac! ;D
But...none of those discs are "new"... just the opposite, in fact; the very same titles that already are available on the shop shelves, even in the U.S., are in all likelihood significantly newer... (Mastering-wise at least 10 years newer, then.) ???
This is just the newest way to cash on a small and single-minded group of maniacs like us when the general markets are dwindling. There is no sound improvement, just a different plastic coating. That's what they ask us to believe translates into something other than what it is. It's a bit like going back to those green ink pens and stuff that Amphissa brought up.
We can be music maniacs but that costs money, so better spend it wisely!
Methinks,
PT
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As i already said but not too clearly, there is no improvement of the SHM remasterings, at least to the Karajan decca recordings. But maybe i have to be a little cautious to my evaluation, since I have great respect for the japanese music industry.
But the price is outrageous, and maybe the value of these releases is that we can have some out of print recordings
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[M]aybe i have to be a little cautious to my evaluation, since I have great respect for the japanese music industry....
and maybe the value of these releases is that we can have some out of print recordings
You are right on both accounts. The best remastering and restoration jobs come out of Japan, every time. For one example only, have you been able to compare the Toshiba Japan EMI remastered CD reissues to the EMI U.K. "ART" remasterings (as in their "Great Recordings of the Century" series)?? Quite a revelation what a differece a good mastering job can do. The Toshiba reissues are from another planet and every time I get so surprised how much there was on that particular tape that I never suspected in the first place, based on the heavily filtered EMI UK versions of the same.
Ditto with many other labels.
But these SHM-CDs are not new remasters. They just have a new plastic on the back which smells of something dubious, big-time; and I can't get over how people can fall for them (must be the case since there is an endless string of those titles being issued all the time), especially with the steep price they carry. But you are right in that it could be an opportunity to acquire otherwise out-of-print items. Also, if we assume that a compact disc has a life span, it'd be like starting from the scratch and looking forward to many new years of prospective listening. (Unless it turns out that more "transparent" plastic is also more permeable to the atmosphere in which case they're dead and gone before the first CD we bought back in the early '80s gets oxygenated.)
PT
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The best remastering and restoration jobs come out of Japan, every time.
That's right. And they are also in very reasonable prices. Also they have the original covers( in full picture, not like Original series) , which i like a lot.
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About the Japanese remastering, this much I can tell you:
Lenny/NYPO/DG M2, M9 Japan > Lenny/NYPO/DG M2, M9 USA
Sinopoli/PO/DG M2, M3 Japan > Sinopoli/PO/DG M2, M3 USA
Karajan/BPO/DG M9 (analogue) Japan > Karajan/BPO/DG M9 (analogue) USA & Europe
Levine/Philly/RCA M9 Japan > Levine/Philly/RCA M9 USA
Regards,
John,
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How about yet another new format?
SASHMCD
"Super-Audio-Super-High-Material CD" ;D ;D
John,
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How about yet another new format?
John
be patient, there are coming. We have already Blue Ray.
And what about Direct Cut Super Audio in hmvjapan:
The recordings of Macal and Zweden and others 18000yen per cd/31500 double
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How about yet another new format?
John
be patient, there are coming. We have already Blue Ray.
And what about Direct Cut Super Audio in hmvjapan:
The recordings of Macal and Zweden and others 18000yen per cd/31500 double
Better still is the reissue (not remastered however) of the Karajan '62 LvB 9th, which just came out as an even more "transparent" all-glass CD costing a measly 200,000 yen per disc. That's about $2,000 if you want to ship it home, too.
www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2625293 (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2625293)
The opinion seems divided on the worthiness of the inventor's effort. I myself entertain no doubts. :P
PT
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"transparent" all-glass CD costing a measly 200,000 yen per disc. That's about $2,000 if you want to ship it home, too.
Yes it is extraordinary and make one laughs loudly. Karajan's recording as jewell with diamonds and pearls. ;D
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SASDMHD-CD
"Super-Audio-Super-Diamond-Material-High-Definition CD"
manufactured by John's Company in USA
sold for $100,000 per disc
;D :P :-* :D
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Karajan's recording as jewell with diamonds and pearls. ;D
Perfectly put... :D
PT