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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: Leo K on June 10, 2007, 06:26:47 PM

Title: FLoored by Fischer's M2...wow.
Post by: Leo K on June 10, 2007, 06:26:47 PM
Last night I finally got the chance to listen to the new Fischer M2.  Excuse my preaching to the choir somewhat, but I am excited over this M2.

Wow, everything really sounds right in this performance, which easily tops my favorite modern accounts by Kaplan, Chailly and Rattle in terms of interpretation, sound (I heard the SACD layer) and overall mood.  Like Kaplan and Chailly, Fischer takes time to build and reveal the musical/dramatic discourse and doesn't give everything away in the first movement (like Rattle)...yet Fischer's 1st movement is more devastating in the contrasts, like the aftermath of the climax at the beginning of the development section...made more serious by the fact that there is no "added" interpretation that I can hear between the lyrical and dramatic sections.  Indeed, this is among ithe least "romantic" of all M2's I've heard (Mehta's NYPO 1982 M2 is another).  I have this impression because the playing is not overly exaggerated, rather the score is played straight without judgement or literal discourse. I am impressed how Fischer doesn't give in to the temptation to overdo every climax.  Hurwitz in his review seems to indicate that Fischer really followed to score to the letter, so that makes this recording all the better, and special.

In the 1st movement, the lyrical sections are felt more because overall, the performance of the Allegro Maestoso sections are the sound of an apathetic universe, which is why the second movement finally makes more sense than I'm used to...the contrast and lyrical connection to the 1st movement is underlined with the warm timbre of dancing strings and the controlled expression and grace of the tempos...played in this manner, the 2nd movement couldn't be more different from the sarcastic 3rd movement, which is executed with even more rustic character and color, and the atmospheric trumpet section sounds soft and otherworldly...a hint of the finale to come...not overplayed or literal...just played as it is.  The Urlicht is beautifully sung by Birgit Remmart, with her tone and the illuminated execution of the orchestra a different world is conjured from what we heard before...that of surrender and light.  A Mozartian grace appears in this performance for the first time, and the orchestral sound is that of repose and stillness...the first glimpse of the "other" side...very subtle and refined.

Somehow all these contrasts are held together, coherent but allowing the extreme contrasts to shine.  The finale really hits hard, especially at the final measures, where suddenly the universe cracks into a another dimension altogether.  I kept hearing the ghost of Mozart between the transparent choir and the clarity and graceful playing of the orchestra.  The voice of Lisa Milne contrasts nicely with Remmart and the choir.  Before this enlightenment occurs, the contrast between the "cold universe" and lyrical nostalgic vistas reoccur without exaggeration, until the climatic percussion crescendo, worthy of Klemperor's terrifying 1971 account of this passage in every way, pushes the envelope beyond structure and balance (as I imagine Mahler intended here) of the entire work.  Bravo to the orchestra, which reminded me of Scherchen's Vienna State Opera Orchestra in his M2, because it doesn't sound like a large orchestra, and the sound is lean and intimate during the lesser scored sections. The whole performance appears to fly by...I usually go for slower tempos, but this M2 is built so well it doesn't matter. 

Now, I pretty excited about picking up the new Zinman M2.

--Leo
Title: Re: FLoored by Fischer's M2...wow.
Post by: barry guerrero on June 11, 2007, 06:02:32 AM
It's kind of a shock because his M6 is such a relatively light-weight performance. He's even lighter than Abbado/BPO in the first three movements of M6, but his finale is really good. Channel Classics wasn't planning to issue more Mahler from Ivan Fischer. However, they felt that his M2 performances were so great, that they simply had to issue it. I'm glad they chose to do that.
Title: Re: FLoored by Fischer's M2...wow.
Post by: waderice on August 31, 2010, 10:05:31 PM
Guys (and maybe gals as well), sorry to appear to be so behind the times on finally getting around to this recording, but though I joined this board after the recording came out and the very limited number of posts about it as expressed by a limited number of people here, and more at Amazon.com, I finally took the plunge and purchased it, despite its steep price and limited retirement funds.  Happily, I find that I am very pleased with this recording, though it is not my "desert island" recording of the work (Bernstein's 1963 NYPO Sony Masterworks is my desert island recording).

This Fischer reading of the "Resurrection" Symphony is one that is the complete opposite of Michael Tilson Thomas' "abortive" (if I may use that term) reading, in both performance and sound.  It took two full listenings of this recording and a third of the finale for me to come to the conclusion that Fischer has made a most valid case for an alternative way of how this symphony can sound (I use the word "can" as opposed to "should", because just as in the bushels of Beethoven symphony recordings that exist, there are alternative ways to make a given Beethoven symphony sound).  Fischer has presented a truly valid argument that you DO NOT have to "wear your heart on sleeve" in every performance of this work.  He has thoroughly done his homework in giving thought to an alternative way everyone else performs this work, everything is in full control, and he had to have been given extensive rehearsal time to make this alternative interpretation come to fruition.  He has found a way to make sure that the details in the score are followed almost to the complete letter, without extensive deviation, plus he was given state-of-the-art recording technology, excellent recording personnel, and equipment to make this a significant recorded document.  In this recording, I recall the live performances I was involved in of the work (in the chorus) 37½ years ago, and many of the particular instrumental details that stood out as I remember from those performances with Dorati and the Washington National Symphony that come back from distant memory.  It is that good!

Without going into numerous details, things that stand out in my memory from listening to this recording are:

1)  The high and low tam-tams.  They were very prominent in the first movement, and about knocked me out of my chair at the beginning of the finale.  Barry, I know you were pleased with these.  Additionally, the bass drum was prominent and well-recorded.
2)  Lack of sentimentality in the second movement and the sardonic clarinets in the scherzo.
3)  Birgit Remmert was adequate as contralto soloist in the fourth movement; others have done better than her.
4)  The huge drum roll in the finale was extremely powerful; probably the most powerful in contemporary recordings, and probably represented what Bernstein was trying to do at that point in the score with the limited recording technology of his 1963 NYPO recording.
5)  The sound of the choir started initially church-like; and nicely, fewer in number.  They sang without vibrato, which I believe is appropriate for this work, which otherwise I feel can muddy the choral sound.  When the climax was reached, it sounded like many more chorus singers came out of nowhere, compared to what it sounded like initially.  Could the choir have been divided into a smaller section initially, and the full chorus utilized at the end?  From the picture of the choir in the recording's booklet, it looks like they were about 65-70 in number, not enough for a work of this scope.
6)  Fischer brought the work to a glorious, well-controlled conclusion, giving power where needed and required in the score, without going overboard.

These are my impressions from memory.  Maybe others have listened to this recording recently and have more to add?

Wade
Title: Re: FLoored by Fischer's M2...wow.
Post by: chalkpie on September 01, 2010, 01:26:06 AM
>1)  The high and low tam-tams.  They were very prominent in the first movement, and about knocked me out of my chair at the beginning of the finale.  Barry, I know you were pleased with these.  Additionally, the bass drum was prominent and well-recorded.
2)  Lack of sentimentality in the second movement and the sardonic clarinets in the scherzo.
3)  Birgit Remmert was adequate as contralto soloist in the fourth movement; others have done better than her.
4)  The huge drum roll in the finale was extremely powerful; probably the most powerful in contemporary recordings, and probably represented what Bernstein was trying to do at that point in the score with the limited recording technology of his 1963 NYPO recording.
5)  The sound of the choir started initially church-like; and nicely, fewer in number.  They sang without vibrato, which I believe is appropriate for this work, which otherwise I feel can muddy the choral sound.  When the climax was reached, it sounded like many more chorus singers came out of nowhere, compared to what it sounded like initially.  Could the choir have been divided into a smaller section initially, and the full chorus utilized at the end?  From the picture of the choir in the recording's booklet, it looks like they were about 65-70 in number, not enough for a work of this scope.
6)  Fischer brought the work to a glorious, well-controlled conclusion, giving power where needed and required in the score, without going overboard.


These are all great points and I agree with all of them.....except no. 6.

Yes, the percussion especially is the best on record that I own and I have a new appreciation for Mahler's scoring for these instruments. I can't think of another recording that displays both the beauty and brutality of the percussion as this one. Yes, the first drum roll is intense as hell! I would also say that there are some tremendous dynamics on this recording, which is spectacular overall, BTW. There are moments on this recording where I say to myself "yes, this is the best on record."

OK - here is my beef on point no.6 listed above (the conclusion): it doesn't blow me away. First, the organ is not ultra present upon entrance. Also, the BIG climax is, well, just underwhelming for me. Sorry. Here is this elaborate, detailed, passionate performance and you're not gonna go apeshit at the end? Why not?! I know some of you may scoff at me for saying this, but for a more spiritual and intense finale check out the NYP Maazel M2 download. It's THERE! He nails it and makes me a believer. Fischer does not here. Bernstein NYPO also makes me believe, albeit it's slow as dirt by the end, but I don't care - the passion is there.

Pretty much for that reason alone I cannot call this M2 my desert Island M2. Actually no M2 has it "all" to my ears. It's just impossible. This one comes DAMN close but I feel Fischer strikes out at the conclusion. Now, I have eaten crow many, many, many times in my life and maybe I will after more listens, but I am going with my gut on about 3 or 4 listens on this.
Title: Re: FLoored by Fischer's M2...wow.
Post by: John Kim on September 01, 2010, 03:26:55 AM
I too have been listening to the Fischer's recording over and over again....like a cocaine.

I agree with all the points you folks made and I will add that this may well be the greatest sounding Mahler recording ever produced.

John,
Title: Re: FLoored by Fischer's M2...wow.
Post by: waderice on September 01, 2010, 04:32:24 PM
OK - here is my beef on point no.6 listed above (the conclusion): it doesn't blow me away. First, the organ is not ultra present upon entrance. Also, the BIG climax is, well, just underwhelming for me. Sorry. Here is this elaborate, detailed, passionate performance and you're not gonna go apeshit at the end? Why not?! I know some of you may scoff at me for saying this, but for a more spiritual and intense finale check out the NYP Maazel M2 download. It's THERE! He nails it and makes me a believer. Fischer does not here. Bernstein NYPO also makes me believe, albeit it's slow as dirt by the end, but I don't care - the passion is there.

I forgot to say earlier, and I agree, that the organ needs to come out more at the end.

Going ecstatic is what everyone else usually does, and was what I believe Fischer was trying to avoid doing.  That would be going against his conception of the work, and I believe, defeat his entire purpose.  This is the most important point in the work that makes it a valid, alternative conception to performing M2.

Wade
Title: Re: FLoored by Fischer's M2...wow.
Post by: John Kim on September 01, 2010, 04:50:25 PM
OK - here is my beef on point no.6 listed above (the conclusion): it doesn't blow me away. First, the organ is not ultra present upon entrance. Also, the BIG climax is, well, just underwhelming for me. Sorry. Here is this elaborate, detailed, passionate performance and you're not gonna go apeshit at the end? Why not?! I know some of you may scoff at me for saying this, but for a more spiritual and intense finale check out the NYP Maazel M2 download. It's THERE! He nails it and makes me a believer. Fischer does not here. Bernstein NYPO also makes me believe, albeit it's slow as dirt by the end, but I don't care - the passion is there.

I forgot to say earlier, and I agree, that the organ needs to come out more at the end.

Going ecstatic is what everyone else usually does, and was what I believe Fischer was trying to avoid doing.  That would be going against his conception of the work, and I believe, defeat his entire purpose.  This is the most important point in the work that makes it a valid, alternative conception to performing M2.

Wade
Well said, Wade! :D ;)

That's precisely my point too.

Fischer may had needed more organ and more ecstasy the climactic passage. But the following coda where the orchestra takes everything over from the chorus is quite overwhelming (here, there is no want of organ, is there?) And that seems to where the true climax is occurring according to Fischer's hands. Actually, this isn't the first time the piece ends this way; Solti and Blomsteadt did the same in their Decca recordings with LSO and SFSO respectively.

John,
Title: Re: FLoored by Fischer's M2...wow.
Post by: chalkpie on September 01, 2010, 04:53:47 PM

Going ecstatic is what everyone else usually does, and was what I believe Fischer was trying to avoid doing.  That would be going against his conception of the work, and I believe, defeat his entire purpose.  This is the most important point in the work that makes it a valid, alternative conception to performing M2.

Wade

I dunno - I am fan of Mahler "The Modernist" in the recordings I prefer of his music, but at the end of this one, I need to have goosebumps galore and feel something substantial is happening, and Fischer doesn't deliver the goods for me personally. It doesn't mean I'm right or wrong - it's just what this listener prefers. It is basically my only gripe of an otherwise stunning and stellar recording of this masterpiece.