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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: barry guerrero on February 18, 2010, 06:08:59 PM
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As I predicted, it's VERY slow: I - 25.02; II - 12:10 (that's ridiculous!); III - 11:24 (pretty darn slow); IV - 6:14; V - 38:00
Sorry, this isn't for me.
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The timings are right in line with Lennie's DG M2.
1987 Leonard BERNSTEIN New York Philharmonic DGG 24:53 12:04 11:24 6:18 38:33
There's more to a performance than just timings! I agree, though, that 12' for II is W-A-Y too long. Even 11' is too long in my book.
So is the Tennstedt one a new release? Do you have a link?
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Is this the one?
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/LPO/LPO0044 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/LPO/LPO0044)
Mahler: Symphony No. 2 in C minor 'Resurrection'
Recorded live at Southbank Centre’s Royal Festival Hall, London on 20 February 1989
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Yvonne Kenny (soprano) & Jard Van Nes (mezzo soprano)
London Philharmonic Orchestra & London Philharmonic Choir, Klaus Tennstedt
Although serious illness had forced him to relinquish the Principal Conductorship of the London Philharmonic Orchestra in 1987, Klaus Tennstedt was able to return a number of times in the following years as Conductor Laureate. In February 1989 he conducted two performances of Mahler’s mighty Resurrection Symphony at the Royal Festival Hall in London. The concerts quickly acquired legendary status; those present talked of an incredible interpretation shot through with emotion, conviction, musical depth and tangible atmosphere, captured here in this live recording.
‘Every appearance that Klaus Tennstedt makes with the London Philharmonic is an event nowadays, and his performances of Mahler are understandably treasured. On Saturday he conducted the Resurrection Symphony; the queue for returns was enormous, and the reception rapturous.’ The Financial Times, February 1989
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hello Scott
Yes, that is the one, a live performanec from 1989 (just down the road from me).
I agree, timings aren't everything. Recently I reviewed a disc where the timings were more or less identical with several rivals yet it seemed much slower overall. Not a little, a lot.
Tennstedt was a different animal in the concert hall, as his recent BBCL Mahler 1 amply demonstrates. There too timings don't tell the whole story.
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Yes, I've been slapped on the wrist many times for looking at timings. But I'm not a big fan of Bernstein's 1987 performance either. Look, I'm just tired of slower-is-better. I just don't need it. Further more, there's absolutely nothing wrong with Tennstedt's EMI studio recording of M2.
And some of you may not agree with this either: I think that Tennstedt's faster, studio M8 is vastly better than the live performance that was captured on video much later. Why? Because the latter performance was lengthened in exactly the least the desirable manner: massive ritardandos placed at pretty much every harmonic cadence point. That doesn't make a performance more expressive. It doesn't enhance the music that somebody wants to make an emotional display - wear their heart on their sleeve - every time the music comes to a section change and/or harmonic cadence point. I don't care about the conductor's biography. I'm sorry to sound callous, but I don't care about cancer, or much anything else like that. I have plenty of health problems myself. And If I got up and started slowing down every 45 seconds to make some kind of expressive display, I would hope that somebody would yank me right off of the podium. Seriously. The music comes first, not the performers.
Barry
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Barry
That's a very strange response, I must say. Nowhere do I say slower is better; indeed, I prefer Tennstedt's live Mahler 1 because it is much more urgent than his studio version. And I don't like Lenny's DG M2 either.
As for Tennstedt's cancer, who knows how it affected his view of Mahler? I don't think you can exclude it completely; dItto Abbado, who has produced some of his finest work in recent years.
And yes we all have our problems, health or otherwise. Can you honestly say they don't affect you, colour your world view, even in the smallest way?
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First off, I was not addressing your comments specifically, Mahlerei. Second, I will state my main point again: "the music comes first, not the performers". Third, Abbado is an entirely different case.
We all know that Abbado has had some pretty serious health problems (and still does, apparently). Some of his performances have been rather dull, but he never used his health as an excuse to constantly slow down. There are conductors who haven chosen NOT to slow down simply because they're getting older. Certainly Toscanini comes to mind. George Pretre appears to be somewhat like that as well. It appears that both Maazel and Eschenbach have chosen to slow down for reasons other than health, and I'm simply not convinced of the results. Sometimes yes, to be certain. But slow tempi shouldn't be applied like a trowel either.
Look, there are simply two things that are bothering me here, and I don't think that they are all THAT hard to understand: 1). I'm sick of the ongoing parade of ultra-slow performances, and 2). I'm tired of people getting sidetracked by the artists' biographies. These are not jazz improvisers. Classical artists are there to serve what was composed in front of them, baroque (and earlier) music being more of the exception.
I want to take this diatribe in another direction as well: Simon Rattle has often been criticized for constantly shifting tempi about. For the most part, I agree with that criticism. But on the other hand, Rattle at least understands that a gratuitous (unwritten) accelerando is every bit as valid as a gratuitous ritardando (slow down). From my training, that's SUPPOSED to be the nature of using rubato. As a result, some of Rattle's performances can sound a bit nutzoid and disjointed, but they at least sound lively as well. I'll take that anyday over these constant "drag-fests" (no reference to one's after-hours activities).
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Look, there are simply two things that are bothering me here, and I don't think that they are all THAT hard to understand: 1). I'm sick of the ongoing parade of ultra-slow performances, and
??????????
Barry, no offense, but I've read no one here parading "ulta-slow performances"...I just see many discussions of recent performances, of which some are on the slower side, but thats the case with every year. I haven't read anywhere here that folks only listen to slow performances because they think they are better. So your comments come out of the blue to me.
--Todd
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And some of you may not agree with this either: I think that Tennstedt's faster, studio M8 is vastly better than the live performance that was captured on video much later. Why? Because the latter performance was lengthened in exactly the least the desirable manner: massive ritardandos placed at pretty much every harmonic cadence point. That doesn't make a performance more expressive. It doesn't enhance the music that somebody wants to make an emotional display - wear their heart on their sleeve - every time the music comes to a section change and/or harmonic cadence point. I don't care about the conductor's biography. I'm sorry to sound callous, but I don't care about cancer, or much anything else like that. I have plenty of health problems myself. And If I got up and started slowing down every 45 seconds to make some kind of expressive display, I would hope that somebody would yank me right off of the podium. Seriously. The music comes first, not the performers.
Barry
I agree with you on the live M8 DVD. It really never takes off. However, to my ears Tennstedt does much better with his other late-in-life live performances. Unlike the live M8, many of the others are both stretched out and also quite flexible in their tempos. He also plays up the dynamics quite a bit. I think his live EMI M1, M5, M6, and M7 performances are in that style and are all first tier favorites of mine. I would be hopeful that the M2 would be closer to this style.
FWIW, I certainly wouldn't compare Tennstedt to Maazel (or at least how I tend to think of Maazel -- slow, steady, inflexible, boring). He's more along the lines of late Lennie or Eschenbach in my book
I'll also mention that some of these LPO-Label releases are not of a particularly high sound quality. Last year's Tennstedt M6 sounded very much like an air check radio recording with EQ'd highs and compressed dynamics. They are usually made available as MP3 downloads on eMusic and other sites, so I'll probably get it via those means.
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All of those are fair comments, Scott, and I'll keep an open mind going forward. I like his early '90s Mahler 7 in the earlier movements, but less so in the latter two. Again, I think there needs to be far more fun and lightness in the latter movements. After all, you're landing on the doorstep of the "Veni, Creator Spiritus". I have to admit to liking his dark and powerful albeit slow Mahler 6 from '91.
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I have to admit to liking his dark and powerful albeit slow Mahler 9 from '91.
Barry,
What's the source of this Tennstedt/M9th?
Are you referring to his live concert with NYPO?
John,
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Sorry, but I meant the EMI M6. I've corrected my hasty reply.
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Sorry, but I meant the EMI M6. I've corrected my hasty reply.
Ok, that M6th is one of my all time favorites along with Levi and Bernstein's early recording.
I heard Tennstedt conducting NYPO in M9th in the early 90s. It was an incredibly lugubrious and cumulatively powerful reading. I'd have been totally exhausted if I had been in the audience.
John,
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OK, and with this, I'll stop ranting and raving about ultra-slow performances. I think I've just been Maazel'ed and Eschenbach'ed to death. I just don't agree that Tennstedt's live performances were always superior to his studio ones. A little self-control and discipline isn't always a bad thing.
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OK, and with this, I'll stop ranting and raving about ultra-slow performances. I think I've just been Maazel'ed and Eschenbach'ed to death. I just don't agree that Tennstedt's live performances were always superior to his studio ones. A little self-control and discipline isn't always a bad thing.
Barry
Wow, someone really rattled your cage, mate. Try exercising some of that self-control you keep going on about.
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Hey, I got to do something to push my own tempi up ;)
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I won't get into the debate about timings, but all I can say is that this performance just blew me away on first hearing last night.
Admittedly, it's slow in parts (especially the meditative moments in the first movement, with every last drop of emotion wrung out in the Tennstedt style), but there's an incredible tension throughout the whole performance, and some passages are actually surprisingly fast. It really is ALIVE. I have to admit a little bias, as I actually attended this concert in 1989 at the tender age of 16 ;) I remember feeling stunned and awed after the concert, but that was before I'd heard many Mahler recordings and performances, so I'm viewing it a bit more objectively now, 21 years later, after a good number of Resurrections (most recently also with the LPO at the RFH, conducted by Jurowski -- now that was a lot faster!).
To sum up, I couldn't live without this performance. Among the high points are the wonderfully hushed entry of the choir, and the final pages are truly among the most exultant I've ever heard -- the LPO choir sings as if their lives depend on every note. Jard van Nes and Yvonne Kenny are also superb, especially in the final duet. The sound is good, even on my eMusic download, with plenty of low organ at the end and powerful gong smashes at the big moments. Now I can't wait to hear the CD (just ordered it from HMV ;D).
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Details are here:
http://shop.lpo.org.uk/shop/Recordings/detail.asp?6292,0,0,0,0 (http://shop.lpo.org.uk/shop/Recordings/detail.asp?6292,0,0,0,0)
Note that this was recorded in February 1989, not 1987.