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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: barry guerrero on March 30, 2007, 04:52:44 AM
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Leo (and others),
Since you don't seem to mind recorded performances that are quite slow, you might try the Maazel/VPO M8 - assuming that you haven't already done so. Part 1 is too slow for me, but it has some very beautiful singing and playing in both parts. Richard Leech gives what might possibly be THE best tenor performance of any in the 8th Mahler. The women soloists are all very good too. My biggest complaint about Maazel's conducting is that while he takes the entire symphony quite slowly, he does the ending to Part 2 relatively fast. Bertini does just the opposite, and that works much better for me. While the organ is rather undersized, the Maazel recording does capture some huge tam-tam strokes at the symphony's ending. They're just plain fun to listen to. I would still take the Maazel M8 over the Abbado, for example, which is just so poker-faced as to render it boring almost beyond belief.
Barry
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Interesting you bring this recording up Barry, as I just recently bought it used for a great price (I bought it cause I liked Maazel's M3 so much). But I haven't listened to it yet. I have other used M8's that I just bought...Chailly, Rattle, Bernstein (on DG) and Haitink. I'm just getting over a huge M9 and M2 binge. I'll next start my M8 binge by listening to Maazel first :)
I also like Maazel's 4th...I wonder if I should try his whole cycle eventually. His M3 just blew me away. In a way, it's like a better sounding Adler...slow and leisurely, with Vienna strings and etc.
Oh, and soon I'm getting the Bertini box (based on the sound clip on Amazon, which sounds fantastic, frankly)...the price on Amazon is just too good to resist.
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The worst M8 ever. Maazel... bah!
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....and the cover almost defines lese-majeste......
I just find the tempo drags - unlike, say Segerstam's, which is almost as long but works just fine for me.
Nick
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I've not listened to the Maazel M8 in a few years, but I remember it being like most of his other Mahler -- slow and inflexible tempos throughout. A long Part II can work just fine as long as the conductor knows how and when to vary the tempos and properly play up the dynamics. In my book, Segerstam is generally very good about this exact thing (in M8 and in his whole cycle). The Nagano M8 is also good in this same respect.
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Yes, yes; but then there's some beautiful playing and singing on the Maazel. But I certainly wouldn't trade my Bertini or Tennstedt for it, however.
Leo, I think it's a rather inconsistant cycle. I think you might like his 7th, which was very slow, but also verrrrry beautiful sounding. It's coupled to a rather normal sounding M6 - the very first Mahler item that he recorded with the VPO. I would avoid his M1 and M9. For some weird reason, there's absolutely no tam-tam smash at the (anti)-climax of the first movement in his Mahler 9th. The rest of it isn't too bad though. The M1 is dull beyond belief. For a slooooow M1, you'd be better off with Tennstedt/CSO.
Barry
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Barry, I heard the first half of Maazel's M8 the other night and loved it. I'll post more later after hearing the whole thing.
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hey, you're the slooooooooooow guy ;)
Funny thing is, I listen to fast but drive relatively slow.
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hey, you're the slooooooooooow guy ;)
Funny thing is, I listen to fast but drive relatively slow.
:)
I got caught up to listening to Maazel's M3 again...twice the last couple of days. This recording makes for a long night, but it is my top M3 ever...and one of my favorite Mahler performances ever. It is like a "long days journey into night"...with many details highlighted and phrased exquisitely. I'm so tempted to get his complete cycle now. I have some live recent recordings of Maazel's M9, but haven't heard them yet.
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Certainly the VPO produces some amazing lung power at the climax of the long brass chorale, located near the end of the sixth movement. Still, it's just a tad too static for my taste. I prefer Boulez's more flowing approach with the VPO.
One interesting albeit odd detail about Maazel's M3 is located in the middle of the "southern storm" fantasy section (first movement). If you pay close attention, you'll notice that Maazel flip-flops the horn and trumpet writing at one spot. In other words, the horns are playing what the trumpets have written, while the trumpets are playing what the horns have written. Interesting but odd.
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The Boulez is another M3 I listen to often...his recent live M3 (with the Berlin Staatskapelle) is also very good, but the posthorn solo is sadly botched-up even beyond my usual high tolerance level...it's still a perfromance I have turned back to recently...the tension is rather incredible since the players jump right in and really take risks. The overall flow is esquisite and the 1st movement moves heaven and hell itself.
Thanks for mentioning the odd detail in the Maazel...thats something I haven't noticed.
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Leo,
You didn't post any comments on Maazel's M8/II. Have you listened to it yet? If so, don't you think Richard Leech does an incredible job? It's almost worth putting up with Maazel's sleepwalk just to hear him. I just wish Sony had dubbed in a larger organ (they chose the Boston Symphony Hall organ), and that Maazel didn't go so fast where his huge tam-tam smashes are - near the end.
Barry
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I'm hoping to listen to Part II either tonight or tomorrow...homework and work always taking me away from what I enjoy the most!!!
I just finished over a hundred pages (of drawings) for a rather complicated scene for an animation project (thats what I'm going to school for)...whew!!! I'm ready for a break...Mahler 8 here I come!!
(By the way, I'm featuring Alban Berg in this animation scene, tentatively called Dear Helene: In Three Pieces)
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I'm finally giving this M8 the listen it deserves and glorious be this recording...GLorious. I'm still in the midst of it so I'll post more detail later...but one thought now:
When the choir first starts to sing (in Part II), the pace and softness bring Aarvo Part's music to mind, as well as the 'The People Are The Heroes Now' chorus in John Adam's Nixon In China. It's amazing how tempo influences perception.
Maazel's M8, in other words, has a 'modern' edge about it.
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The Maazel M8 is fantastic and is immediately my new favorite version of this work. I especially like the VPO in this recording, who bring a kind of "dark" edge to the proceeding, if that makes sense. In my last post I spoke of this sounding somewhat modern, and I found Maazel's M8 to grow more out of the 7th Symphony than I usually hear. Usually I hear the 8th to be a return to the style of the Wunderhorn works, but not here.
Ultimately, I love these slower tempos....especially the Part II prelude. This makes the 8th even more vast and epic, and even devotional. And I can hear the details in the score better. The singing is overwhelmingly beautiful with a very full sound...yes, I agree Richard Leech is simply wonderful and is a highlight. God I love those ending tam tams!!!
I wish I could accurately put into words the Maazel/VPO sound...which is almost empty or "isolated" in tone...I often envision an individual alone in a sunlit landscape, like a landscape by Salvador Dali. Another word that comes to mind is "un-relational". The drama is always forstalled by a drop in energy or excitement...maybe "depression"...yet when the power, or energy is called back into being, the performance as a whole feels overwhelming and gigantic...even spiritual...but the performance never rests but keeps searching, or wandering. The performance is more philosophical than dramatic. This is why I like Maazel's Mahler.
The Maazel/VPO Beethoven 5th (on CBS coupled with the Schubert 8th)...
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/214K8SVZVAL._AA130_.jpg)
(the cover with the "Jawa" on it)
...has been my favorite Beethoven 5th for almost 20 years...that Maazel/VPO sound is also felt in the Beethoven and Schubert performance, and now I'm discovering the Maazel/VPO Mahler has that same sound...like this M8 here...wow.
Definitely at the top of my M8 list.
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Leo, did you ever hear the Maazel complete Beethoven cycle with the Cleveland Orchestra?
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Leo, did you ever hear the Maazel complete Beethoven cycle with the Cleveland Orchestra?
No, I haven't heard that...is it worth checking out? I wonder how the Cleveland sounds compared to the VPO?
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. . . much like the VPO, only located in Cleveland. Seriously, which VPO: Erich Kleiber, Knappertsbusch; Schuricht; Furtwaengler; Karajan; Bohm; Schmidt-Isserstedt; Berstein; Rattle?
Leo,
You're the only the person I know who has expressed such a liking for the Maazel Mahler cycle, and his eigth in partcular. For me, Maazel's Celibidache-like tempi just get too much in the way. But I do recognize all of the positive points that you mention. If Maazel had just taken Part II's ending a bit slower, instead of speeding up - combined with more pipe organ in the mix - I might really take his 8th to heart. One thing I do like about it, is that the orchestra and chorus seem so well integrated. You don't get the sense that the chorus is coming through a different set of microphones. For me, that's the big problem with the highly touted Solti M8 - it sounds like every section and every soloist has their own microphone; all placed strangely in a oddly shaped room (which is exactly how the Solti 8th was recorded!). But I have to hand it to you, Leo, you're able to articulate very clearly as to why you like something that isn't considered popular or like-able. You're a beacon of independence, but you're able to express why so. Charles Ives would be proud of you.
Barry
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A big thanks for your kind comments Barry 8)
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No, I haven't heard that (Maazel/Cleveland Beethoven cycle)...is it worth checking out? I wonder how the Cleveland sounds compared to the VPO?
Actually, no. Maazel and the Clevelanders did a great job with that Beethoven cycle, but it was among the most poorly recorded cycles ever. I had the Columbia LP version in the late 70's when it came out. When I found the CD set, I'd hoped the recordings were remastered, but they sounded as flat and hollow as the LP version.
I cannot exactly describe what is wrong with the sound. It's as if you start playing the discs with a decent stereo system, but the sound that comes out is more like something from a boombox. Too bad, it would have been one of the great cycles IMO had the recording been done properly. There are a few cycles that are well played and conducted and recorded well, so give the Maazel set a pass (if you can even find it).
Incidentally, in contrast to his Mahler, the tempos in his Beethoven were rather brisk for their time (though not as fast as some conductors today do them).