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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: john haueisen on January 02, 2009, 05:52:42 PM
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Although Mahler has always been my favorite composer, I finished off the old year and ushered in the New Year 2009 with a return to Richard Wagner.
I watched and heard the glorious sound produced by Daniel Barenboim in his Bayreuth production of Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen.
Many here at the Mahler board are quite aware that in Mahler's day he was best known as the "best-ever" conductor of Wagner. Listening to Barenboim's dvd set of the Ring, I was reminded of the comments made so often by those who attended Mahler's performances of Wagner's music: "I never heard that before," or "That's just the way Wagner wanted it."
A Mahler performance of Wagner usually guaranteed a sellout crowd, even when they raised ticket prices.
Barenboim does that again with Mahler. I heard so many quick leit motif themes and references that I had not noticed under other conductors. He brought some themes (usually neglected) so much into the forefront that it seemed the music should never have been performed any other way. For me it was a tantalizing taste of the way the public, more than a century ago, was dazzled by Mahler's "bringing forth" of Wagner's music.
Has anyone else ever found Wagner's music really getting to them?
--John H
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Wagner has always got to me. I remember being mezmorized by the Advanced Band at my junior highschool when they played some sort of composite "thingy" arranged for band called, "Wagner Showcase". I would been all of 11 years old. I think it was the first time I stood up and took notice of anything that was "classical". In high school, we sometimes played a band arrangement of the Prelude & Liebestod from Tristan. I always loved playing that, and our band director conducted it superbly (my highschool had an outrageously good band program). We also did some of the big preludes from the operas. We specialized - seriously - in the Rienzi overture.
The problems with Wagner are obvious: he badly needed an editor, and his strong affiliation with German nationalism. But those problems tend to make audiences dismiss Wagner altogether. What's also obvious, is that that's a big mistake. There's much in Wagner that is beautiful, prophetic, moral; you name it. For me, the Prelude to the third act of Siegfried is a big highlight. I just wish it were longer and more developed.
I've got to go.
Barry
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I just got around to Wagner in the past year. I've never been able to listen to opera on LP or CD, but I discovered that I actually like it when I can also see what's going on. So I've been enjoying opera on DVD and have actually attended the opera some during the past year (La Cenerentola at Spoleto, Madam Butterfly at the Met last month).
I chose to begin with Boulez and the Met production, because it has "traditional" staging. I'm glad that I've now seen/heard it in its entirety. There were some very fine passages, and I like his music on the whole. It was also sort of fun seeing things Tolkein cribbed for his trilogy.
But it is just too endlessly long, with too little action on stage (the old stand and sing thing) and way too much mundane filler material. I'll stick with the orchestral highlights.
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I just got around to Wagner in the past year. I've never been able to listen to opera on LP or CD, but I discovered that I actually like it when I can also see what's going on. So I've been enjoying opera on DVD and have actually attended the opera some during the past year (La Cenerentola at Spoleto, Madam Butterfly at the Met last month).
I chose to begin with Boulez and the Met production, because it has "traditional" staging. I'm glad that I've now seen/heard it in its entirety. There were some very fine passages, and I like his music on the whole. It was also sort of fun seeing things Tolkein cribbed for his trilogy.
But it is just too endlessly long, with too little action on stage (the old stand and sing thing) and way too much mundane filler material. I'll stick with the orchestral highlights.
IMO, even the greatest operas have much ordinary, mundane filler materials. I can hardly sit through a Wagner opera, except for Siegfried. Another exception is Berg's Wozzek which is a nonstop stunner from beginning to end. I once thought Strauss's Elektra could keep me alert for its 1 hr 40 min. duration but when I attended Seattle Opera's production last year I feel asleep a few times. Frankly, I'd rather stay home and listen to highlights of the operas or Beethoven's symphonies; I just don't have time and passion to be an opera audience. Having said this, I love Wagner's pure orchestral compositions (all from his operas). He was a master orchestrator with great skills and imaginations. No question about it at all.
John,
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Amphissa said, "I've been enjoying opera on DVD. But it's just too endlessly long."
Bravo Amphissa! DVD is the way to go on opera!
If you're a Wagner "nutcase," as I am, it's fun to flip back and forth in the subtitles to check what was said in the original German.
In opera, as in Mahler, the words were meant to be heard and understood. They add immensely to the impact of the music and the, as Wagner would call it "the universal work of art."
All this nice stuff said, Amphissa and John are right about how endlessly long the Wagner Ring seems. It's like watching impatiently as your old aunt tells a story and keeps remembering endless, seemingly unessential details that she thinks she simply MUST include.
I share your pain, but know also that for many Wagnerites, they are simply too short--they want more and more details, and a chance to savor each note of each aria.
Isn't that scary?!!!!!!!
Cheers--John H
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Wagner has always gotten to me too. Ever since I came how with an Odyssey LP of Bruno Walter conducting the Tannhäuser Overture & Venusberg music....I couldn't believe this amazing music.
I find all of Wagner inspired, and have occasionally called him the greatest of all composers. But in recent times, I do find the longueurs get to me as well. A recent Tristan from the Met had lost me in the Second Act (possibly the fault of the performance). I think the most successful drama is in the Ring, and the most sublime music is in Parsifal. Parsifal is jaw-droppingly beautiful that I don't care what it's about.
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I really enjoyed watching Levine's Ring back in 1988 or so, on PBS when I was younger...I taped the radio broadcast as well, and would listen on camping trips. I always wanted to get back into it, but discovered it was hard to just listen to the whole Ring on CD without a visual...and years went buy without hearing Wagner. I'd like to change this for the new year, and finally get a DVD set...it is best to watch it and hear it at the same time, especially for a newbie like me!
My favorite music of the cycle is the sound of the Rhine, at the beginning of Das Rheingold...sublime music...love how it leads into the Rheinmaiden's voices.
--Todd
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"My favorite music of the cycle is the sound of the Rhine, at the beginning of Das Rheingold...sublime music...love how it leads into the Rheinmaiden's voices."
Absolutely brilliant! - that alone showcases Wagner's genius.
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My apology. It is the Levine/Met DVD set that I have, not Boulez.
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Yes, Amphissa, the Met production with Levine is more traditional.
The Boulez featured direction by at the time controversial Patrice Chereau.
At first, I was a bit shocked to see Wotan and the other gods in dressing gowns, yet still carrying a spear. The production by Boulez and Chereau did however, make a very effective vehicle for showing how Wagner was commenting on the Industrial Revolution. Man's greed--only someone who renounces love--can empower him to fashion the Rheingold (nature's resources) into something that will give him power and control over the world.
You might enjoy the Barenboim Ring. The costuming and scenery are somewhere between the traditional (Levine/Met) and the avant garde (Boulez/Chereau), but the sound and the filming are excellent!
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But it is just too endlessly long, with too little action on stage (the old stand and sing thing) and way too much mundane filler material. I'll stick with the orchestral highlights.
On the whole, I agree with that statement by Amphissa. I've been into the orchestral higfhlights since I was in college in the late 70's. I have never enjoyed the complete operas as much as I thought I would after listening to the highlights for so many years.
Of complete Ring cycles, I still prefer the Boulez/Chereau cycle. Even though some thought Chereau's staging odd, what with the change in "historical period", it was really the first since Wagner's time to actually bring a lot of stuff on stage. The productions of the 60's such as Böhm's, just feature singers onstage with little or no sets or backgrounds. Chereaus's in contrast seem quite spectacular. The passage of time is also apparent in Chereau's version, though I never got usaed to seeing Siegfried in black tie. I liked the Met/Levine version as well, what with the historic setting, but just felt that Boulez/Chereau and their cast presented a more dramatic version of the operas. I have not yet heard/seen Barenboim's. Is it on DVD?
I also like the Bayreuth version of Tannhauser with Spas Wenkoff and Gwyneth Jones (just released on DVD, BTW). I saw a pretty good production of The Flying Dutchman here in Houston a few years ago. I don't know if I can ever get though all of Tristan und Isolde. Some of Wagner's operas are just too long for me. Götterdammerung contains some of Wagner's best highlights (the farewell and Journey to the Rhine, the Funeral March, Brünhilde's Immolation) but, damn, it's a long opera.
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quote author=Damfino link=topic=795.msg6804#msg6804 date=1231048583]
[ I have not yet heard/seen Barenboim's. Is it on DVD?
Yes, Damfino. It's a 7 DVD set, Bayreuther Festspiele, Barenboim, Kupfer.
Audio content: LPCM Stereo--Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround, DTS 5.1 Surround
It's the best audio and video Ring I've ever seen.
--John H
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Just finished watching Barenboim's Siegfried.
Once again, as Mahler might observe, I am dazzled by "the master."
In the last ten minutes of Siegfried, where Brunnhilde and Siegfried are getting to know each other, Wagner manages to insert seamlessly into their dialog, a dazzling number of leit motifs--the themes or signature tunes identifying other characters, objects, or concepts presented previously. Is it any wonder that Mahler was in awe of him?
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"Is it any wonder that Mahler was in awe of him?"
Mahler and many other composers. He was so extraordinarily influential musically.
I just wish he had spent his time composing symphonies and other substantial orchestral works rather than those interminable operas. He would have had far greater impact on the listening public. Because, let's face it, only a relatively small proportion of those who love classical music like opera, and even many opera lovers do not want to sit through Wagner operas. As it is, the majority of classical music fans have probably heard only a few highlight pieces or overtures, and would only immediately recognize the Ride of the Valkyries highlight out of all the music Wagner wrote.
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Of course I know that you're right, Amphissa, but it's so hard for an inveterate old Wagnerite like me to keep being faced with the fact that so few really appreciate him to the extent he deserves.
I believe it was George Bernard Shaw, who said of Wagner's Ring, that it "is the greatest work of art that Western Civilization has produced."
I guess there is my answer: how few people are there across the globe who truly appreciate art, let alone classical music or opera?
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I've been listening to Wagner for about 20 years, to Mahler for about 10. I occasionally pull out a score, but I'm a musical amateur and lack the analytical chops of many on this board.
Both composers "get to me." And for similar reasons: the ideas are huge, the insights profound, the details are super-fine, and the music is always beautiful. If I were to go to a dessert island, both composers would have to go with me.
But let's face it, they're both long-winded. Wagner's operas are double-long, and so are Mahler's symphonies. I'm willing to put in the time because ultimately it's worth it.
I'm afraid I'm about to speak a heresy here, so apoligies in advance, but here goes: although Wagner is terribly long-winded, Mahler has a flaw that I don't see in Wagner, since Wagner continually develops his themes, moving forward, however slowly. But Mahler has the flaw of REPETITIVENESS which I find less forgivable. For instance in the first movmement of the Third (M3), I feel like I go on a long journey with Mahler and then when we've come through the mud into a better place, we're just back in the mud. I haven't looked at the score, but I'd swear there are repeat signs in there. What's up with that? Necessary?
I'm interested to hear people's thoughts, since I've learned a lot here, and what I've learned has really enriched my appreciation of Mahler.
db
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I'll address your question - or issue - because I happen really love the first movement of Mahler 3. It is repetitive in the sense that the movement is basically a struggle between two opposing march forces: a tragic sounding, funereal march in minor; and a happy-go-lucky, quicker march in major. Of course, the "happy" march wins out in the end. But they do duke-it-out, back and forth, several times. In my opinion, what distinguishes this movement - aside from Mahler's kaleidoscopic orchestration - are two things. First, an incredible development section which leads to a climactic fantasy passage that Mahler himself dubbed, "the southern storm". Mahler also referred to it as "the rabble", and in one draft of the score he even penciled in, "let the battle begin". This passage is like hearing the battle with the King Rat from Tchaikovsky's "Nutcracker", but on steroids. Everything goes nuts, including independent, polyphonic parts for 7 or 8 percussionists (2 timpanists; snare drum - sometimes doubled; bass drum w/ mounted cymbal; triangle - sometimes doubled; tambourine - sometimes doubled; tam-tam). Anyway, "the southern storm" tapers off into an offstage snare drum solo which, in turn, leads to the recapitulation: a reprise of the symphony's opening fanfare for unison horns (which then leads to a reprise of our two opposing march forces). The other distinguishing feature is the coda. When executed superbly at a break-note tempo, the coda can lift you right out of your seat. More than anything, Mahler's outrageous, kaleidoscopic orchestration carries the day for a full half-hour. I never get tired of it.
Both the Ben. Zander and Esa-Pekka Salonen recordings of Mahler 3 have incredibly fast codas that are just thrilling to experience. But to get them up that speed, they also had to simplify the timpani part a bit. Timpanists simply can not play 16th notes on four different pitches - and hence, four different drums - at that speed. I don't always want to hear it done that way, but it IS incredibly exciting.
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It's not that easy to detect because it's really one measure in 4/4 time (or two bars in "ala Breve" - cut time). The timpani are doubled by the horns. The way you can tell is that the horn part is really, REALLY clear on the Salonen recording. I got to wondering why (you usually can't hear them there), and realized that the timpani part had been simplified for that one bar. The same is true on the Zander. If you own the Abbado dvd, I believe that they show the timpanist going back and forth on the four drums at that spot. It's just before the bass drum strokes near the end. It's an impressive thing to watch.
Barry
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Well, I've just been haunted by the sounds of The Ring, lately...especially after hearing a radio documentary on the Ring cycle recently (WNYC Radio Lab).
Today I took the plunge and ordered Levine's MET DVD set...I thought this would be a great way to reawaken the magic of Wagner, and I'm also fond of this production.
;D ;D ;D
On my two weeks off between semesters at school it's going to be a Ring retreat.
--todd
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Everyone seems to feel that on DVD, the Levine one is best for anyone wanting "traditional" staging and costumes. The Ring is incredible - so totally opposite in message from what Hitler and the third Reich had extracted from it. To some degree, it's even a feminist tale. I also think it has some comic aspects, whether intentional or otherwise. It's a long haul with some truly "snoozy" sections along the way (the entire Prologue to "Gotterdaemmerung" - oi vey!!). But taken in its totality, The Ring pays big dividends (when you're in the mood). Have fun.
Barry
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The Ring cycle may be the greatest opera Wagner composed. But I think in terms of organic unity and inner logic, Tristan und Isolde surpasses the Ring. It's a tremendous thrill ride from start to finish and almost works like a great symphony. Well, so does the Ring with each of the four installments working like an individual movement. But with such a long duration it's inevitable that there are many snoozy moments as Barry described. I find little of such in Tristan und Isolde, however.
John,
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Certainly Mahler loved both "Tristan" and "The Ring". ;D
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Can anyone recommend a good modern recording of Tristan und Isolde?
I have Thielemann's and Karajan's and like them both. The Thielemann is particularly remarkable in the execution of the orchestral part; it is as if he conducts a Bruckner or Mahler symphony. The architecture and inner logic of this great opera are captured as perfectly I can imagine.
Thanks.
John,
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Can anyone recommend a good modern recording of Tristan und Isolde?
I have Thielemann's and Karajan's and like them both. The Thielemann is particularly remarkable in the execution of the orchestral part; it is as if he conducts a Bruckner or Mahler symphony. The architecture and inner logic of this great opera are captured as perfectly I can imagine.
Thanks.
John,
My all-time favorite 'Tristan' is Karl Bohm's on DG, done in 1966. (I hope that still qualifies as 'modern!) Bohm conducts at a fever pitch throughout--almost too fast at times, actually, but it's full of intensity and passion. Nilsson is jaw-droppingly spectacular, her gleaming high notes shooting out like laser beams. And Windgassen is right up with her--I still get knocked out every time I hear his death scene in Act III. This recording is still available in DG's Originals series--the sound is pretty bass-light but otherwise good, and it represents the unique acoustics of Bayreuth pretty well.
I've also got the Karajan, but, while good in its own way, I just can't stand Jon Vickers (heresy for many, I know!). Haven't heard the Thielemann, but even though I've liked a lot of Thielemann's previous recordings, I don't really want to hear Thomas Moser as Tristan (haven't liked him much at all). I'd still be interested in hearing it, though, if only to hear how Thielemann does it.
Russell
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Oh, yes, I do have the Bohm too and love it.
But Thielemann is very special. His Tristan almost sounds like a great symphony with vocal singing, like Mahler Eighth.
John,
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John,
You might want to try the Pappno one on EMI, with P. Domingo and Nina Stemme. The sound quality and orchestral execution are both outstanding. Stemme is terrific, and I like Domingo as a heldentenor more than most folks do. I don't care if his German diction isn't always the best. It also comes with a DVD disc (no picture) that has the whole thing on that one disc. It's an expensive set, but you already own the Bohm.
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Mahler and many other composers. He was so extraordinarily influential musically.
And not just influential on composers or musically. His influence was great on writers (Mann, Hesse, etc.), politicians (Hitler, among others less evil), philosophers (Nietzsche), and culture in general. One could argue that he has been the single most influential artist - for good or ill - of the past 200 years, with the possible exception of Beethoven.
I've always preferred Wagner's acutal music, i.e. just the music without voice, to the actual operas as such. Of the Operas, Parsifal is my favorite, and the Prelude to Parsifal is among the most transcendently beautiful music I have ever heard.
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Ah, the Prelude to Parsifal.
That is indeed transcendental music.
And you are so right about the extent of Wagner's influence.
Also, without Mahler's appreciation for Wagner and what Wagner wanted in performances of his music, Mahler may never have developed into the master conductor he became (which, in turn, made him a far more effective composer).
--John Haueisen
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Here is an olde threade back from the DEAD - - - - - bwahahahahahahahaha........!
OK. First I find it humorous folks find Wagner too long yet Mahler is their favorite composer :D
I am pretty much a Wagner novice, I own a few collections, etc, but no complete operas and I've never done The Ring. Anyway, I've been spinning "The Compact Ring" with Levine/Met over the past few days and the piece that slays me is "Der Augen leuchtendes Paar" (Magic Fire Music) from Valkyrie. Wow. Stunning music. The first 30 seconds is like the final moments of M2 and M3 combined, just without the other 90 minutes preceding it ;)
Seriously great stuff. What a harmonic genius. This music glows like one of those neon necklaces kids get at carnivals, and yes that is a compliment. But I am confident that over the long haul the vocals will begin to grate on me if I attempt to do something like The Ring without visuals, and I don't like to park my ass in front of the tube for very long - I prefer to listen. So I dunno.
I am going to check out a few collections from my library system and see what clicks and what doesn't. They also have The Ring in separate installments. When I was an undergrad music student, we had to conduct a band arrangement of "Elsa's Procession to The Cathedral", and I have always loved that piece since, and the tune proper from Lohengrin is even better with the choir. Just brilliant stuff. And yes, I agree with whomever said that The Parsifal Prelude is one of the most gorgeous pieces ever written - it certainly gives GM a run for his money.
If anybody has any other instrumental Wagner suggestions - possibly off the beaten path (i own the popular overtures, interludes, etc) - feel free to share the wealth. Thanks.
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If anybody has any other instrumental Wagner suggestions - possibly off the beaten path (i own the popular overtures, interludes, etc) - feel free to share the wealth. Thanks.
Chalkpie,
Lorin Maazel has done a thing for orchestra he calls "The Ring Without Words"—a symphonic synthesis in the manner of Leopold Stokowski—in which he presents much of the best music from Wagner's four music dramas seamlessly, in more-or-less chronological order, with no singing. It's about an hour long. He's recorded it on Telarc with the Berlin Philharmonic, and it could be just the thing to ease you into the ring without undue pain.
James
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If anybody has any other instrumental Wagner suggestions - possibly off the beaten path (i own the popular overtures, interludes, etc) - feel free to share the wealth. Thanks.
I don't know if you're equipped to play LP records or open reel tapes, but back in the 'sixties, there were numerous stereo albums released by most of the mainstream conductors that contained Wagner overtures and what people called "bleeding chunks" of popular excerpts from Wagner operas. Many were released on what then was Columbia Masterworks, which is now owned by Sony. Conductors featured were Walter, Ormandy, Bernstein, and Szell for that label, and there were numerous Europe-recorded albums released on EMI featuring Klemperer, Karajan, and later, DG, with both Karajan, Bohm, and a few others. Probably my favorite were the three Wagner albums recorded by George Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra, which were later combined into one three-LP boxed set, and which also saw open-reel issuances. There have been many other such albums by other conductors, but the names I mention were probably those that had the most complete coverage of such repertoire. There have been scattered releases of some of these conductors and their Wagner material on CD in later years, many featured as "Greatest Hits" albums.
I remember very well a Wagner concert I attended back in the 'seventies that featured these "bleeding chunks" by Antal Dorati and the National Symphony of Washington, DC. The first half of that concert featured early and non-Ring Wagner material; the second half featured Ring excerpts which were later recorded as a Decca/London LP release, and which I think has since been released on CD. I still have the LP of this material.
Wade
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I've been listening to Wagner for about 20 years, to Mahler for about 10. I occasionally pull out a score, but I'm a musical amateur and lack the analytical chops of many on this board.
Both composers "get to me." And for similar reasons: the ideas are huge, the insights profound, the details are super-fine, and the music is always beautiful. If I were to go to a dessert island, both composers would have to go with me.
But let's face it, they're both long-winded. Wagner's operas are double-long, and so are Mahler's symphonies. I'm willing to put in the time because ultimately it's worth it.
I'm afraid I'm about to speak a heresy here, so apoligies in advance, but here goes: although Wagner is terribly long-winded, Mahler has a flaw that I don't see in Wagner, since Wagner continually develops his themes, moving forward, however slowly. But Mahler has the flaw of REPETITIVENESS which I find less forgivable. For instance in the first movmement of the Third (M3), I feel like I go on a long journey with Mahler and then when we've come through the mud into a better place, we're just back in the mud. I haven't looked at the score, but I'd swear there are repeat signs in there. What's up with that? Necessary?
I'm interested to hear people's thoughts, since I've learned a lot here, and what I've learned has really enriched my appreciation of Mahler.
db
One of the most pitiful stories I've ever heard about an individual's introduction to Wagner came from my wife. She had a professional mentor years ago in the early part of her career who was also an opera nut. While she was working in downtown Chicago, her mentor took her to a Chicago Lyric Opera production of Siegfried - that's about as extreme as it gets to introduce a novice to Wagner! ;D ::) :'( :o
One thing that has helped me maintain an interest in Wagner is that I took German many years ago, and have tried to maintain some familiarity with it by listening to Wagnerian opera, without having to travel to Germany. Some familiarity with the language will help in getting through the lengthy portions of the operas. Also, study the synopses describing the action (or lack thereof) that accompany libretti of the operas. The more you read, study, and listen, the easier it eventually becomes to digest what's going on. Opera nuts have been doing this for years, they know the operas by heart, and they know who sounds good at this particular spot in the opera, etc., etc. ::)
I might suggest one section of a Wagner opera that may sustain your interest for about the last third of its first act: That of the Transformation Music and Grail Hall Scene from "Parsifal". This is quite magisterial music that Wagner skillfully develops into what is to my ears, essentially a 45-minute tone poem. The orchestra plays a significant part in this section, though the voices of the Grail knights and the voices on high add considerable effect as well. Though solemn, you will not find much grander and sublime music elsewhere. The last scene of the third act is even more solemn and gloomier, but the closing minutes of the opera are absolutely sublime.
Note that many epic movie soundtracks, such as that of "Ben-Hur" (composed by Miklos Rosza) rely on the heavy use of leitmotiv (or signature themes) in their works, the same tool which Wagner introduced and employed in his operas. This is one instance of how Wagner not only influenced subsequent composers' music, but how he also influenced Hollywood - many of Hollywood's lengthy epic movies are around four hours - the same length of the majority of Wagner's operas.
While on the subject of leitmotiv - there is an excellent album that appeared shortly after the Solti Ring was released, titled "An Introduction to Wagner's Ring". This was a three-record set that featured commentary by both Wagner and Mahler scholar Deryck Cooke, along with musical examples from the Solti recordings illustrating the leitmotives. I think this was later released on CD, but might be hard to find.
Wade
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While on the subject of leitmotiv - there is an excellent album that appeared shortly after the Solti Ring was released, titled "An Introduction to Wagner's Ring". This was a three-record set that featured commentary by both Wagner and Mahler scholar Deryck Cooke, along with musical examples from the Solti recordings illustrating the leitmotives. I think this was later released on CD, but might be hard to find.
Yes, indeed, Deryck Cooke's An Introduction to Der Ring des Nibelungen is a great resource. The two-CD set is still available new from Amazon for around $20.00.
http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Ring-Nibelungen-Deryck-Cooke/dp/B00000424H/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1283099662&sr=1-1
James
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My favorite music of the cycle is the sound of the Rhine, at the beginning of Das Rheingold...sublime music...love how it leads into the Rheinmaiden's voices.
--Todd
Do you mean the opening movement (Vorspiel) into "Weia! Waga..." ?
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"OK. First I find it humorous folks find Wagner too long yet Mahler is their favorite composer"
Huh? Do the math. The entire third symphony probably isn't a whole lot longer than just the prologue to "Gotterdaemerrung". Even if it were, it's still a LOT more action packed. That doesn't mean that I don't like Gotterdaemerrung, but the last act is certainly the best one, I think.
Wagner was a truly great composer - an invaluable inspiration to Mahler - who just also badly needed an editor.
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I think that a lot of it has to do with opera being visual and musical but I haven't quite gotten into it, or Wagner, yet. I have tried to take out a few cd boxes of operas from my library. Any suggestions on where to start?
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"Meistersinger" is great, but it's awfully long. Try "Meistersinger", but just one act at a time. "Tristan" is fabulous, and was a huge favorite of Mahler. Of the four "Ring" operas, I actually like "Siegfried" the best. "Rheingold" is the shortest of the four.
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Since "Rheingold" is the shortest of the ones Barry mentions, it will likely hold your attention the best of the four, as the action isn't as static as in the other longer operas.
Wade
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Do they have subtitles?
Thanks for the suggestions; I'll try checking out some from my library. The one piece by Wagner that I am pretty familiar with is his "Siegfried Idyll" because I've heard at a concert before.
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Do they have subtitles?
If you intend to check out videos, yes, they should. In the case of audio CD recordings, you meant to ask, is there a text with translation included with the recording, otherwise known as a libretto? Unless the library copies you check out have lost the enclosed booklet containing notes to the opera and the libretto, the answer is yes.
Videos obviously provide sight as well as sound. But the more experienced you become in listening to Wagnerian opera, you should eventually "graduate" to not needing the "sight", but only the sound. What I'm trying to say, is that the better modern Wagner opera recordings (mostly studio) generally were made pre-1970, and the best live recorded Wagner performances were generally made pre-1960. Generally, the best Wagner "live" performances came from the shrine of Wagnerian performance, that of Bayreuth in Germany, at the Wagner Theatre, but there are exceptions. Experienced opera listeners generally prefer live recorded performances over studio recordings; at least, those listeners who prefer the pre-1960 recordings. Why? Because for the most part, the most knowledgeable and thoroughly-experienced conductors and singers from the pre-1960 era were generally considered the best and consistently delivered the best possible performances. The names are too numerous to go into here.
Wade