gustavmahlerboard.com
General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: Freddy van Maurik on May 04, 2011, 08:00:53 AM
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Any comments on this?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Symphony-No-2-Lpo/dp/B004UVCONQ/ref=pd_sxp_grid_i_2_2
Freddy
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Hi Freddy,
Have you listened to any samples yet?
Try these from Presto :
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/LPO/LPO0054#listen
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Here's what I wrote at Amazon about this:
The first thing the I noticed on Jurowski's LPO recording of Mahler 2 - aside from the sharp, incisive attack from the strings - is just how greatly improved the acoustics are in London's Royal Festival Hall since its recent make-over. I couldn't believe that this was the same-old RFH! Then the performance itself took over. More on that later.
I'm afraid that Jurowski has started yet another Mahler cycle in London, but to rather great acclaim so far (a recent Mahler 3 from him had everybody jumping out their seats). I've also heard great things about his LPO recording of Tchaikovsky's "Manfred", but have yet to pick that up (a proto-Mahler work if there ever was one!). Thus, this is my first encounter with this fiery, young conductor. Predictably - and rather like the case with Paavo Jarvi - this is a performance of large contrasts between fast and slow sections. But Jurowski gets such passion and commitment out of the LPO that everything hangs together perfectly. My only minor complaint is that it was totally unnecessary to lengthen the second movement - basically an Intermezzo type movement to begin with - to almost 12 minutes duration. But as if to make up for that, Jurowski gives us a scherzo that is so fully characterized that you can literally see and hear St. Anthony preaching to those indifferent fishes who refuse to listen to him (assuming that you already know the Wunderhorn song that this movement is derived from). There's poignancy and irony to-boot. That's followed by a gorgeous account of "Urlicht" from Christianne Stotijn - the same mezzo soprano who did an equally fine job on the recent Haitink/Chicago S.O. recording of Mahler 2. From there, things just get better as the finale is superb.
All of the big climaxes during the fifth movement's march section are as exciting and powerful as one could possibly hope for, and the choral ending is superb. To that end, the LPO use a set of deep bells that sound fully convincing as church bells. There's sufficient organ supporting everybody from below, but a tad more would have been welcomed. Combined with the hugely improved acoustics of RFH (The Barbican pales in comparison), you end up with a Mahler "Resurrection" that's fully competitive with the best of them. Isn't this a lucky time to be a Mahler nut-job? Personally, I think that this is a far better Mahler 2 than the recent issue of Tennstedt's 'live' Mahler 2 - also with the London Phil. - that got so much praise heaped upon it. If nothing else, RFH certainly sounds far better here.
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eMusic has this available as a download, even though the CD doesn't come out in the US until the end of June. I am planning to wait and get the CD, but since the recording is multi-tracked, I was able to download just the last 7 minutes of the symphony for $0.49. Barry is right-on: the ending is superb -- as good as any I've heard.
I am always put off by 11+ minute second movements, but hey, Lennie/DG and MTT both did that and they are still among my favorite M2's.
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I see that eclassical.com has just recently made this available as a download as well. The advantage with eclassical over emusic is that eclassical offers downloads at full CD quality (and sometimes higher). The cost for this is very reasonable, too: $9.90 for the whole album at full 16-bit CD quality. The only downside to this is that there's no booklet included.
http://www.eclassical.com/labels/lpo/mahler-symphony-no-2-resurrection.html
I've downloaded many 24-bit (and a few 16-bit) files from them and can attest to the site's (very high) quality. Their servers are pretty speedy as well.
Russell
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This comes out tomorrow at Amazon US - I just ordered it and very much look forward to hearing it.
Cheers,
Herb
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This comes out tomorrow at Amazon US - I just ordered it and very much look forward to hearing it.
Cheers,
Herb
Wow. Listening to the Jurowski / LPO M2 right now. Very impressive. I love how the tam-tam at the end of the third movement carries over to the beginning of Urlicht where the voice seems to emerge out of that lingering, beautiful sound. (David Hurwitz makes a note of this in his book, and how rarely Mahler's wishes in this regard are respected or captured in recordings). The choirs sound marvelously rich in this very moving finale. I could stand a bit more organ at the very end, but the bells make up for it, at least for me.
I'm not (yet) informed enough about all the intricacies of the score to be a great judge of this, but I do really like Jurowski's choice of tempos throughout. Seems like just the right amount of ritardando where needed, but it doesn't ever seem to drag like some other interpretations.
Anyway, for this Mahler newbie, a real contender for my new favorite M2.
Best,
Herb
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I like the scherzo a lot also. It's as though you're actually listening to the Wunderhorn song, "St. Anthony's Sermon to the Fishes", but w/o the vocals, of course. Jurowski really gets them to 'characterize' that movement.
I'm starting to think that it's better not bother with trying to do the bell part as written at the end of the symphony, and just play them "ad lib." as Bernstein and Jurowski do (I'm sure there are others who do that, but I just can't think of them at the moment).
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While it's hardly enough to ruin the CD, the "bravo jerk" on this CD really annoys me.
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Yeah, I guess I should have mentioned that. Obviously, it didn't bother me that much. If it were Mahler 6, I'd kill them.
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[Applause at the end of Mahler's 2nd]
Yeah, I guess I should have mentioned that. Obviously, it didn't bother me that much. If it were Mahler 6, I'd kill them.
Hear, hear!
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[Applause at the end of Mahler's 2nd]
Yeah, I guess I should have mentioned that. Obviously, it didn't bother me that much. If it were Mahler 6, I'd kill them.
Hear, hear!
Though I still appreciate Mackerras' M6, I do wish that one 'BRAVO' had been spliced out.
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I wish the record companies consistently would put the 'bravos' and applause in live recordings in a separate track, so you can program your CD-player to exclude this if you don't want it. In some recordings this is done (e.g. Abbado/BPO M9). Hearing 'bravo' and/or applause after a M9 or dLvdE performance can also be VERY annoying; at least I want silence, total silence.
Roffe
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I wish the record companies consistently would put the 'bravos' and applause in live recordings in a separate track, so you can program your CD-player to exclude this if you don't want it. In some recordings this is done (e.g. Abbado/BPO M9). Hearing 'bravo' and/or applause after a M9 or dLvdE performance can also be VERY annoying; at least I want silence, total silence.
Roffe
Ditto. I think they should take all the bravos and applause OUT of the recordings.
They are not just annoying but destroys my listening experiences.
John,
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They are not just annoying but destroys my listening experiences.
John,
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I was just executing the British type of understatement.
Roffe
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Total silence after M9 is imperative! I really like the way Abbado sort of forces his audience to hold their enthousiasm until he's ready to allow the silence to be broken.
Back OT: I received my copy of the Jurowski M2 today - hope to be able to listen to it tomorrow, along with the Nott M3, that I got in the mail yesterday.
Freddy
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I've spent some more time with the Jurowski M2, including the latest Mahler Thursday night with my Mahler "buddy." Though I can appreciate the desire for no applause at the end, or it at least separating it from the program with a separate track on the CD, I find that it doesn't bother me that much. I certainly wouldn't want any of you to miss this fabulous version because of the "bravo jerk."
I did listen carefully at the end to see if there's enough space between the last notes and the "bravo" to see if it would be possible to edit it out with audio software if one wished; sadly I don't think it would be possible as the applause does ever so slightly intrude upon the last lingering sounds of the orchestra.
At least in M2, and particularly in this performance, I'll admit that the natural reaction should be stand up and shout Bravo! After, of course, a decent hesitation! :)
Cheers,
Herb
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I see that Edward Seckerson gave this a rave review in the August Gramophone, the headline of which reads: "A New Benchmark". Strong words.
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Here's a link to that review:
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/mahler-symphony-no-2-%E2%80%98resurrection%E2%80%99-0
Nice piece of writing, especially this:
...the electrifying col legno passage, like the beating wings of the angel of death, so deliberate as to accentuate the sudden rush to the precipice...
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Here's a link to that review:
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/mahler-symphony-no-2-%E2%80%98resurrection%E2%80%99-0
Nice piece of writing, especially this:
...the electrifying col legno passage, like the beating wings of the angel of death, so deliberate as to accentuate the sudden rush to the precipice...
Well, that's a quite a review.
So, should I invest in yet another Resurrection?? ???
I have over 20 something (probably more ;)) recordings of this symphony and I thought I am pretty happy with the Fischer, Mehta, Klemperer, and Bernstein(s).
John,
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So, should I invest in yet another Resurrection?? ???
I have over 20 something (probably more ;)) recordings of this symphony and I thought I am pretty happy with the Fischer, Mehta, Klemperer, and Bernstein(s).
Go ahead and get it John. I have 48 M2s, and it didn't stop me ;D
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That's right! I've some 65 (and counting...) but I'm genuinely happy that I got this one as well!
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I've listened to the first movement twice so far, and I don't like it. The tempo changes are annoying and the faster sections are too fast for me. The notes are all there, the great sound is there, but I felt nothing. I sampled 'Urlicht' and was not impressed with that either. After I've taken some meds I will try again, as it appears that I am not in tune with everyone else.
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brunumb
You are not alone. Scroll to the end of this Roundup:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/July11/July11_1_DL_Roundup.htm
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Noq that it seems okay to not like this recording, I shall add my name to the list. To me, this is a 'mathematical' reading of the work: played with precision but absolutely without soul. I can cope with all the tempo changes in the first movement, but I cannot forgive Jurowski for what he has done to the symphony's final pages. Sorry, but no.
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Thanks for that link mahlerei.
The one word that stood out for me in the review was earthbound. Perhaps Jurowski tried too hard to interpret the work and something got lost in the process.
And it's reassuring to know that maybe I haven't quite lost the plot........yet.
But then again, to each his own. I'm a big fan of the LSO/Solti recording, particularly for the vocalists, and there are those that rate it quite low in the pantheon of M2s.
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Noq that it seems okay to not like this recording, I shall add my name to the list. To me, this is a 'mathematical' reading of the work: played with precision but absolutely without soul. I can cope with all the tempo changes in the first movement, but I cannot forgive Jurowski for what he has done to the symphony's final pages. Sorry, but no.
What I find fascinating and very endearing about the Mahlerites I've encountered in online and personally is how varied all our tastes are - one person's performance of a lifetime may be utterly unlistenable to others - and how passionate we can all be in our opinions. :) As someone quite new to Mahler's music, I'm still trying to articulate what it is that I like or not about the various CDs I've heard.
It would be very interesting to me, as someone who likes this Jurowski recording, to know what M2 recordings you prefer instead.
Cheers,
Herb
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It would be very interesting to me, as someone who likes this Jurowski recording, to know what M2 recordings you prefer instead.
I would refer you to your thread headed "A newbie's beginning Mahler collection" where I list the recordings of the symphonies that I especially enjoy. I have a lot of M2's, including a lot of broadcast recordings rather than commercial, some of which are really excellent such as John Neschlings performance with the Sao Paulo State SO, others are really rough around the edges, but very interesting to listen to as they put everything they've got into the performance such as the University Symphony Orchestra of Cgicago under Barbara Schubert.
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It would be very interesting to me, as someone who likes this Jurowski recording, to know what M2 recordings you prefer instead.
I would refer you to your thread headed "A newbie's beginning Mahler collection" where I list the recordings of the symphonies that I especially enjoy. I have a lot of M2's, including a lot of broadcast recordings rather than commercial, some of which are really excellent such as John Neschlings performance with the Sao Paulo State SO, others are really rough around the edges, but very interesting to listen to as they put everything they've got into the performance such as the University Symphony Orchestra of Cgicago under Barbara Schubert.
Oh, sorry about that - I'd forgotten that you'd replied in that earlier thread. I went back to re-read that and will reply to you there. Do you have an online source for the Neschling / Sao Paulo M2 you can share? It sounds very interesting.
Best,
Herb
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Oh, sorry about that - I'd forgotten that you'd replied in that earlier thread. I went back to re-read that and will reply to you there. Do you have an online source for the Neschling / Sao Paulo M2 you can share? It sounds very interesting.
Sorry, no I don't. I think I got it from either Operashare or ConcertArchive (both Yahoo groups), but it was quite some time ago.
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So far I've listened to I. and the final 10 min. of V.
My first impression (which might change at a later point) is that the performance, however well played and recorded, is lightweight. I didn't hear much swagger or grandeur in this recording. Notes are all there and the playing is very crisp and pointed, however.
I will try it again soon.
John,
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Yeah, but what I don't hear ANY of you commenting on is that the acoustics of Royal Festival Hall have been HUGELY improved. To me, Jurowski is a very fire-y conductor. As the for the orchestra, it's the usual LPO: big cymbals; loud horns; not terribly strong low brass, but proficient; decent strings, and probably THE best woodwind section in London (which isn't really saying all that much). Because of the improvements in the acoustics, there's far, FAR more bass response than in previous decades. I'll take it over the dragged-out "live" Tennstedt any day.
Also, having the bells played 'ad lib.' at the end of the symphony is a matter of preference, I suppose. I'm not convinced that the way Mahler wrote the part works all that well. The best solution, I reckon, is displayed on the Bertini M2, where you have one set of large bells - onstage - playing the part as written, while another set of offstages bells bongs away in the distance.
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Barry,
As usual, your observations here are so accurate: LPO has always had big cymbals, loud horns (which I really LIKE) and decent strings.
Maybe I wasn't just in a mood for this kind of Resurrection, so will try it again tonight ;).
John,
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Barry; yes of course the acoustics are a massive improvement. However, you could have the best acoustics that could possibly exist, but if the performance doesn't hit the heart - for whatever reason - then it's only matter-of-fact.
I'm more interested in your observation about the bells in the Bertini recording. I haven't heard that recording yet (...yes, I know...) but I am now prompted to rectify that as soon as possible. Onstage and offstage bells: bonging in aural perspective! It's a must!
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WAIT!!
I hear DRC (dynamic range compression) in most of the climactic passages in Jurowski M2nd.
This is so unfortunate because otherwise the sonics are quite good.
Why the DRC?? Isn't this supposed to be a digital recording??
John,
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I also find Scherzo mov. strange.
About 3:45 into the movt. there is a passage that starts with a low string. I've memorized the entire passage in my head and also have the score. But some of the notes seem to be missing here. Either the mistake in the playing or in the editing??
Go figure yourself!!
John,
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I have listened to the Jurowski M2 a few times now and my opinion has not changed. To me the tempo changes and phrasing just seem mannered, too self-conscious. I found the timps much too loud and prominent, unnecessarily aggressive, even brutal at the start of the scherzo. Why? The singing is OK, but not a standout. Sure, the ending is loud and full on. But that's all. There's more to the second symphony than organ, bells and tam-tam. This one didn't move me at any time I'm afraid.
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Hmm, I wouldn't agree that the Royal Festival Hall sounds better since its makeover. It's still fairly bright, dry and, in some seats, it actually sounds worse than it did before the refurb.
It's a great pity that London, my home city, still doesn't have a concert hall to rival the best elsewhere in the UK - Birmingham, for instance - and abroad.
The vast sums of money being thrown at the 2012 Olympics would have been much better spent replacing the RFH and its crummy environs with a new, state-of-the-art complex.
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Whatever the reason, the bass response is better than usual, as captured on this particular disc. I have friends in London who think that RFH does, indeed, sound better. One person I know, who I feel has a very keen ear, thinks that RFH sounds much better than previously. I can't judge because I haven't been there in decades. But I noticed a huge difference right at the start of disc 1 (double basses and celli)
To address a previous response, I think the scherzo is terrific. Just follow the clarinet phrasing, if nothing else. You can almost hear the vocalist from the corresponding Wunderhorn song. Yes, the tempo jumps around a bit, but not destructively so. This is still an early Mahler symphony, and it shouldn't sound mature beyond its years. There's still a bit of influence from Franz Liszt in the 2nd symphony (and maybe Berlioz as well). That's just an opinion.
Yes, there is more to ANY Mahler symphony than just organ, bells and tam-tams. I would not be enthused about the the Jurowski if I thought that that's all it had going for it.
Also, because I like the Jurowski, doesn't mean that I now dislike Bernstein (the early N.Y. one), Klemperer (especially the live BRSO one), Andrew Litton (I like the tons of separate tracks), Stokowski, Fischer, P. Jaarvi, Ozawa/Saito Kinen, or any of the other ones I've chosen to keep for various reasons.
And by the way, the LPO timpani over-pound on many of the Tennstadt recordings as well, but everybody (not me) would describe a 'live' Tennstedt performance as inspired and passionate. I feel that much of his late work borders on the overwrought. As I said, I'll take this over the highly touted Tennstedt (the live one) any day.
I edited this entry because much of what I had to say was not conducive to a positive, objective conversation.
Barry
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I also find Scherzo mov. strange.
About 3:45 into the movt. there is a passage that starts with a low string. I've memorized the entire passage in my head and also have the score. But some of the notes seem to be missing here. Either the mistake in the playing or in the editing??
Go figure yourself!!
John,
Did anybody check this out??
I couldn't believe what I was hearing. ::) :'(
John,
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I don't have expectations of everybody agreeing with me - that would retarded. But I am a bit annoyed with the level of responses to the Jurowski - especially when something feels like barb at me.
Barry
Don't get your feathers ruffled Barry. My comment about bells/organ/tam-tams was not specifically aimed at you. In fact I hadn't revisited any of the earlier posts and forgotten most of the comments written here.
BUT, now that you mention it, in the back of my mind I'm sure that I have noticed that many of your reviews (and those of others I should add) focus a little excessively on the presence of those instruments. Maybe that's what prompted my particular remark. You are obviously a very knowledgeable musician and I am pretty much ignorant when it comes to the technicalities of music. I bow to your expertise in that respect and always read your reviews with great interest and appreciation for the insights you offer.
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"I have noticed that many of your reviews (and those of others I should add) focus a little excessively on the presence of those instruments"
That's greatly because up until more recent times - the last decade or two - percussion wasn't always attended to properly, or thoroughly enough, in Mahler performances. Things have improved greatly, and there really isn't a need to focus on perc. so much these days (in regards to Mahler). That said, however, the percussion and organ ARE very important at the end of the Mahler 2nd because there's absolutely nothing else going on other than the brass sounding the tonic and dominant chords, and the strings holding long tones (long bow strokes or tremolos). Even today, the logistics for the ending of M2 remain problematic. Another point: if anybody doubts the importance of percussion in Mahler's writing, just look into the cheap Dover Edition scores. You'll be amazed what's there.
Sorry if I over-reacted. (editied) By the way, I think Stojtijn sounds very good, but singers are always a very subjective 'taste' type of thing. Sorry again.
B.
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I agree with you about the ending of M2. Unless it is handled well it can be a bit of a let down. After the final chorus Mahler seems to let the wind out of the sails by letting the music die down. It doesn't quite recover from that in my opinion.
Time to revisit the M2 collection and sort the wheat from the chaff ;D
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"Unless it is handled well it can be a bit of a let down. After the final chorus Mahler seems to let the wind out of the sails by letting the music die down. It doesn't quite recover from that in my opinion"
Exactly. Great observation. Sorry about the ruffled feathers, but I'm realizing now that several factors were combined to create a 'perfect storm'. There was a party in the cafe (connected to the Musical Offering), and it was really loud in here. As a result, several customers were very difficult and nasty. Blah-blah-blah >:(
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All is well 8)
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When all's said and done we can only trust one set of ears - our own. As for Ed Seckerson he's always worth reading - and listening to on BBC's CD Review - but even he isn't infallible. 8)
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When all's said and done we can only trust one set of ears - our own. As for Ed Seckerson he's always worth reading - and listening to on BBC's CD Review - but even he isn't infallible. 8)
With that said, I think it would be a good idea to go on to discussing other recordings, whatever our preferences for or against this one.
Wade
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With that said, I think it would be a good idea to go on to discussing other recordings, whatever our preferences for or against this one.
Wade
Agreed. But we need a new thread Wade. This one is headed 'Jurowski M2'.
How about a more generic thread title like 'Recent releases of M2'.
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I'll probably report on the Stenz M2 sometime soon. 8)
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I'll probably report on the Stenz M2 sometime soon. 8)
Please do Barry.
I really like the MSO 5th and am waiting for his M2 to become a little cheaper.
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First impressions of the Stenz M2 are not good; tempi are sluggish to say the least and Stenz emulates Rattle in that downward figure at the end of the first movement. Will listen to the rest later but not terribly encouraging so far. :(
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I'll probably report on the Stenz M2 sometime soon. 8)
Barry,
The Stenz M2 is the one I've been waiting for with my fingers crossed.
I am looking forward your review! ;)
Regards,
John,
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"tempi are sluggish to say the least"
In comparison to what? The timings are pretty darn normal for the first three movements. He's certainly quicker than Jurowski in the 2nd and 3rd movements. I think that Stenz's M2 is pretty darn decent, but not quite as distinguished as his "DKW" or his M4.
Yes, Stenz does the descending run at the end of the first movement on the slow side, a bit like Rattle. He also sits on the gradual percussion build-up, just before the fast part of the 5th movement's long march section, for a very long time. At the end of the symphony, Stenz does the bell part as written, and the alternating salvos between the three bell pitches, and the upper and low pitched tam-tams, is all pretty audible. The organ is decent but not huge sounding. Good chorus, decent mezzo. I like the slight accellerando that Stenz does at "Ich bin von Gott and will wieder zu Gott - der liebe Gott", in 'Urlicht'. That was a nice touch.
It's hard to evaluate because there's been so many good recordings of the "Resurrection" in recent times. I liked it, but probably no more than Fischer, P. Jarvi or Jurowski.