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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: Vatz Relham on January 08, 2007, 10:59:35 PM
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I have been making my way through the Bertini box again, and am just amazed at how good it is!
Not a singlle bad performance or recording. I would even consider M1, M8, Das Lied, M9, M10 adagio, as top pics,
and all the others in my top 3 for each work.
Bertini seemed to have a remarkable feel for tempo, at no time do I think: This is too slow, or this is too fast, even if you think the adagio of M9 is slow at 28 mins, it sounds right, the first mvmt is also 28 mins.
Even the dynamics are right where there supposed to be, not boring, not overly emotional, just right.
This set to me is the way Mahler should be played.
Vatz
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I'm really excited to get this soon...hopefully with my tax refunds!!
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As much as I like Bertini's M9 & M10 on EMI, I like his remake with Tokyo Metropolitan Orch. even better. It's available on Fontec label. Although the playing by the Japanese orch. is not on par with the German orchestra Bertini's interpretation has improved, especially in the great first movt., and the SACD sound is nothing short of spectacular.
John,
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The Tokyo remakes of 6 and 7 are tad better also. But now that the entire Cologne cycle is available in a box, it's not worth the extra expense of supplementing your EMI box with them, I don't think. Also, the Cologne 8th is definitely better than the remake in Japan. It's nothing to worry about, I don't feel.
Barry
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Just bought this Bertini set, I'm very excited to receive it.
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Where is the best place to order the set, i.e., at the lowest price?
John,
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Amazon has it new, at least at this moment, for only $45 and change!
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I think I got it some months back from Amazon for around $30 because I had an Amazon credit to burn.
I am surprised no one here has commented much on Bertini's Mahler 1. To me, it seems to be the fastest I've ever heard. The 2nd movement is particularly fast. Mahler marked it as "doch nicht so schnell". I daresay Bertini is close to downright "schnell" in his interpretation. But, he takes the entire work rather faster than most conductors, so his 2nd movement fits in well with his over-all approach.
At first, I was a bit put off by his approach, but after hearing it a few times, I got used to it. If you listen to Bertini's Mahler 1st, and then listen to a slower one, such as Eschenbach's, the Eschenbach seems almost funereal.
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I think I got it some months back from Amazon for around $30 because I had an Amazon credit to burn.
I am surprised no one here has commented much on Bertini's Mahler 1. To me, it seems to be the fastest I've ever heard. The 2nd movement is particularly fast. Mahler marked it as "doch nicht so schnell". I daresay Bertini is close to downright "schnell" in his interpretation. But, he takes the entire work rather faster than most conductors, so his 2nd movement fits in well with his over-all approach.
At first, I was a bit put off by his approach, but after hearing it a few times, I got used to it. If you listen to Bertini's Mahler 1st, and then listen to a slower one, such as Eschenbach's, the Eschenbach seems almost funereal.
If you think Bertini is fast at about 7 1/2 min in M1/2 try Boulez at around 6 1/2 min, and I also like Boulez,
but Bertini is my favorite Mahler conductor overall based on 21 years of listening to this music.
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000BQ7BX2.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
Vatz
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My source tells me that the Bertini set was digitally remastered from the original recordings and as a result it sounds better than the previous releases. Is there any way to confirm this?
John,
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I don't know if they sound better - just different, I think. Look, John, just spend the money and get one! You won't regret it.
Barry
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"...just different"? Uhm...could be "improved". I am mostly after the Sixth & Ninth parts where the sound was shrill (6th) and somewhat opaque (9th). Hope that EMI cleaned up the sound. But the sonics on the 8th, 10th Adagio, and DLVDE was outstanding.
John,
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I've received the Bertini set and this is the second time I've owned it; This time I'm not letting go! All works in the set are conducted well, while you can find the set for between $50 and $60. This makes me question how stupid we all are, buying dozens upon dozens of recordings of the same work for big bucks when we can find an fine set like the one mentioned. It makes us all look like junkies in search of the ultimate fix. :-[
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I've been saying for years - long before EMI issued this box set - that I felt that the Bertini cycle was the most consistantly great cycle of any.
Barry
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This makes me question how stupid we all are, buying dozens upon dozens of recordings of the same work for big bucks when we can find an fine set like the one mentioned. It makes us all look like junkies in search of the ultimate fix. :-[
I don't think I could live with just one interpetation though...
but I am a junkie ;)
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This makes me question how stupid we all are, buying dozens upon dozens of recordings of the same work for big bucks when we can find an fine set like the one mentioned. It makes us all look like junkies in search of the ultimate fix. Embarrassed
I certainly agree in terms of sets. It can get costly, and with most sets, you have a clinker or two to contend with. However, I do not feel it is quite so foolish to have a few extras of the individual symphonies. Though I must say, once I find one or two versions I like, I tend to feel I do not need the extra copies and sell them off. I have two complete cycles (Haitink and Bertini) and cannot see buying any more sets (I already sold Kubilek's on ebay). I have extra singles of all the other symphonies except for the 3rd, which IMO is well represented in my two cycles. I have more 2nds han I need, even after selling off several. Often I feel that the next new recording must surely be "the one I have been waiting for", and often cannot resist giving them a try.
My real sickness has been with Beethoven cycles. At one point, I owned about 9 complete cycles. After selling several on ebay, I am down to 3. I do not have room for more, and I like what I have so well, I think I can safely say I am out of the Beethoven set collecting business.
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I'd be curious to know what three you settled with.
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You mean the Beethoven sets? I kept Bruno Walter's Columbia set. That was the first complete cycle I bought on LP back in the 70's on the Odyssey label. However, the broad tempos are a tad too broad for me these days, so I do not play it as much. But, I cannot bring myself to part with it. Actually, the only ones where the tempos annoy me are the 7th and 9th. The finale of the 9th just lays there, and the 7th's first movement is too slow, IMO. Walter's 6th is often considered the best ever.
I also have Kurt Masur's 2nd Leipzig Gewandhaus set. This was well recorded digitally, and uses that edition that sort of lightens the sound of the symphonies (the approach taken by Abbado, Rattle, et al). The soloists in the 9th include Jard Van Nes and Sylvia McNair, who are also distuinguised Mahlerites as well. The Masur set is quite affordable ($30-ish), and IMO a much better value than pricier versions that take the same approach.
However, I really do not like to hear some of Beethoven's symphonies in this new modern (actually retro, I guess) style. The Eroica, for one, never seems to have the proper weight and grandeur performed that way. So, I guess I really prefer Beethoven in the old style, with a bigger sound, but not with lumbering temos. These brings me to the set that is my current first-stringer-Herbert Blomstedt and the Dresden Staatskapelle. These were recorded in the last bloom of great analog recording in the late 70's. The sound is approately "big", though a tad reverberant. However, the woodwinds are always crystal clear. I do not remember the names of the soloists in the 9th, but all are good (I hate 9ths where the soprano cannot pull off the finale). The Eroica is the way I like it, with a soaring quality. The abrupt changes from piano to forte that Beethoven used, and which were shocking in his day are very apparent in these recordings ( I think those effects are diminished in the more modern ones). The main theme of the opening movement of the 7th was just a tad slow, but I did get used to it, and now quite like it. The 6th is on a par with Walters, though recorded better. Like Bertini's Mahler set, there are no duds here, and @ approx. $20, the set is an outright steal, IMO. Blomstedt seems to be a conductor no one ever hears about. His Mahler 2nd with the SFSO is the one I seem to be playing the most these days.
Among the Beethoven sets I sold on ebay: Lenny's Vienna Phil set, Harnoncourt, Von Dohnanyi's Cleveland, Solti's analog CSO, Karajan's first Berlin cycle (I have the 9th as a single). I think I may have sold nother, but cannot remember now. Of that group, I thought Harnoncourt's to be the worst, and I think I only played it once.
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I've owned the Karajan '63 set, the Karajan digital, and the (would have been good, if not on period instruments) Gardiner set.
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Thanks Damfino for that nice overview...I've been on the hunt for a good 'recent' Beethoven cycle for awhile...besides the Furtwangler I already have (my favorite Beethoven conductor).
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Actually, the Blomstedt set is probably my very favorite set as well. He's a solid, mainstream conductor of Austro/German works, and the Staatskapelle Dresden sound fabulous. I like the Klemperer ones also.
Barry
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talk about an olde thread......
I am considering pulling the plug for the Bertini EMI box from Clamazon for roughly $32 including shipping. Do I really need this? State your case!
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I have the set (have had it for over a year). It's extremely well conducted, played and recorded throughout. I must say however, that in my list of "go-to" recordings, the ones I actually pull off the shelf when I want to hear a particular Mahler work -- none are from the Bertini box.
Other sets I have include Kubelik (DG and Audite), 3 Bernstein sets (DC and DVD), NYPO broadcasts, Bruno Walter.
And many individual recordings.
If I had to keep only one set, it would probably be the Columbia Bernstein.
db
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Yeah, that is sort of why i have hesitated this long to buy it. It seems to be a super-solid set overall but very rarely have I seen instances of Mahlerjunkies stating the Bertini M__ as their favorite version of that work.
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OK - I pulled the trigger on The Bertini Box...32.90 including shipping. I've paid more for an oil change at Jiffy lube.
I'll chime in when I've eaten this thing for dinner.
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Excellent buy!
Bertini's box is indeed incredible, through and through. This set was a surprise to me. I held off for awhile too, wondering whether another box was worth it. Well, on first listen, to Bertini's M2, I was floored at the nuance and sound of the orchestra.
I would be happy if I just had Bertini's and Bernstein's 1st cycle.
I could live with just those two.
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OK - I pulled the trigger on The Bertini Box...32.90 including shipping.
How about telling us where you found it at this price? That's around 12 bucks cheaper than Amazon.com.
Wade
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"It seems to be a super-solid set overall but very rarely have I seen instances of Mahlerjunkies stating the Bertini M__ as their favorite version of that work."
What drives the Bertini set is its incredibly consistency in terms of sound quality and orchestral execution, combined with Bertini's full understanding of how each work fits into the overall Mahler narrative - from the youthful first symphony to the 10th symphony Adagio. It's like listening to the complete "Ring" as an ongoing narrative, as opposed to comparing recordings of the four separate operas.
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"It seems to be a super-solid set overall but very rarely have I seen instances of Mahlerjunkies stating the Bertini M__ as their favorite version of that work."
What drives the Bertini set is its incredibly consistency in terms of sound quality and orchestral execution, combined with Bertini's full understanding of how each work fits into the overall Mahler narrative - from the youthful first symphony to the 10th symphony Adagio.
In this department, I'd cite de Waart/NRPO/RCA cycle on the same level. Very well played, recorded, and interpreted. Not too extreme, but not too rounded either, this is as fine as any other set including Bertini, Kubelik and Haitink.
John,
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I like the DeWaart cycle as well. But remember, the Bertini box comes with a really good "DLvdE" with Ben Heppner and Marjana Lipovsek.
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OK - I pulled the trigger on The Bertini Box...32.90 including shipping.
How about telling us where you found it at this price? That's around 12 bucks cheaper than Amazon.com.
Wade
It was Amazon, but through one of their vendors. The shipping time takes longer in most cases but the cost savings in nice
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On Beethoven:
I am now up to 18 complete sets, and I will cheerfully admit that this is pathological. Two outstanding sets that I don't think have turned up in this thread are Vanska/Minnesota/BIS and Dausgaard/Swedish Chamber Orchestra/SIMAX. Both conductors show strong period-practice influences--fleet tempos, antiphonally divided violin sections and low strings on the left--with solid orchestral playing captured in fine sound. Dausgaard is a bit more adventurous, but his recordings are on seven individual discs that are expensive to order new and hard to find in the US. I was patient and waited for reasonably priced copies to turn up on Amazon Marketplace. Vanska occasionally sells for $30 at ArkivMusic, an irresistible bargain.
I agree that the Blomstedt set is superb, and it's sad that so few of his other recordings are currently available. As is common with central European orchestras, the Dresdeners play with a sense of unanimity that is really satisfying.
I like Zinman's Zurich cycle a lot, though I wish he had divided his violin sections (as he did in the Mahler cycle). I'm not sure I'd pick any of his performances as a particular favorite, but they are bright, lively and fresh. The first movement of his Ninth struck me as absurdly rushed at first, but I got used to it and came to enjoy it.
Gardiner strikes me as undercharacterized, even allowing for the scrawny period-size orchestra. Toward the other end of the spectrum, the Czech Phil sounds magnificent for Paul Kletzki, though frequent and gratuitous tempo changes in the Eroica are bothersome. Eventually I'll slim down my Beethoven sets, but you couldn't pry that one from my cold, dead fingers. Nor could you relieve me of Jochum/Concertgebouw, music making on the highest level.
On Bertini:
I have the box set and agree that it represents a compelling and consistent view of the works, all in all very satisfying performances. But in my recent M9 obsession, I was troubled by the opacity of the recording. In particular, the first movement's elaborate counterpoint in the strings seemed to turn into mush, a pity in a passionate and intense reading.
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On Bertini:
I have the box set and agree that it represents a compelling and consistent view of the works, all in all very satisfying performances. But in my recent M9 obsession, I was troubled by the opacity of the recording. In particular, the first movement's elaborate counterpoint in the strings seemed to turn into mush, a pity in a passionate and intense reading.
EXACTLY!! :D :D
That's what I have been saying about the Bertini M9th all these years!
The sound is so opaque to the point that the many counterpoint lines are blended rather than distinct.
Too bad because the orchestra plays brilliantly with total conviction.
In this regard, Bertini's remake with Tokyo Metropolitan Orch. is much better in the sound if not in the execution.
John
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You can't 'hear' all those distinct contrapuntal lines in the strings anyway, regardless of how un-blended you can make them sound. Well, I can't. Maybe others can. It's like Mahler became Strauss all of a sudden.
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On Beethoven:
I am now up to 18 complete sets, and I will cheerfully admit that this is pathological.
I looked at my post on the Beethoven sets and realize that it is mostly untrue now. Of the sets I mentioned back then, I only kept the Blomstedt and sold off the rest. In addition to Blomstedt (which I still play), I currently have:
Bohm, VPO: recorded in the early 70s, the sound quality and playing of the VPO are awesome. The 5th is a little slack, but the rest are great. The 7th is on a par with Kleiber's, IMO. His 6th is highly regarded, but I don't like the "blaring" horns in the 3rd movement (I don't like them in Szell's recording either).
Szell, Cleveland: Like Bohm's, available in their entirety though not in a box set.
Karajan, BPO (1977) Better recorded, IMO than the famous 1963 set.
Barenboim, Staatskapelle Berlin Very traditional readings, and the orchestra plays beautifully. I also have this on DVD-A. The 5th is a little flaccid, and the first movement of the 7th is (IMHO) a tad too fast.
I had the Vanska set, but sold it off. I really have grown crotchety about H.I.P. Beethoven. I really don't like the vibrato-less, rather cold sound of that approach. I did like the way he did the early symphonies; but I could not get a feel for impact that the Eroica would have had on its early listeners. In Vanska's hands, I thought the Eroica sounded more or less like # 1 and 2.
An interesting set I recently picked up is:
Wynn Morris, LSO. I didn't even know he had done a Beethoven set, as this one has been under the radar. Apparently, the set was well received at time of release and followed on the heels of a successful concert run of the symphonies. However, Morris had a rather off-putting personality, and alienated so many people that his career ended early and these recordings were allowed to languish in obscurity. His approach is sort of a cross between H.I.P. and traditional. The tempos are quite fast; but he never loses sight of the intensity and heroic nature of the works. the 5th reminds me of Kleiber's. The 6th is too fast IMO, like Karajan and Vanska. The rest is really well done.
Dave
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You can't 'hear' all those distinct contrapuntal lines in the strings anyway, regardless of how un-blended you can make them sound. Well, I can't. Maybe others can. It's like Mahler became Strauss all of a sudden.
It's not in the strings alone, but the contrapuntal lines in the brass too get blended in this recording.
Where are the horns??
John,
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Somewhere to the side of the trombones. I think it's a perfectly fine 9th, and I'm not going to ding the entire cycle because of the 9th. In fact, I'm wishing that the 9th would just go away.
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In fact, I'm wishing that the 9th would just go away.
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Does this mean you don't dig M9 or just Bertini's reading or....?
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Bertini is in the house!
I have some listening to do.......
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"Does this mean you don't dig M9 or just Bertini's reading or....?"
A little of your first guess and a bit of "or". I just wouldn't judge any complete cycle by the 9th unless the first movement were truly a train-wreck. I also get tired of all the focusing on the 9th symphony at the expense of "DLvdE" and the 10th symphony - both of which I feel are far greater works, overall, than the 9th.
The 9th has a fabulous first movement, but then everything that comes after it is anti-climactic. The second movement is pretty good, but I really feel that the Rondo-Burlesque is the worst thing Mahler ever composed - perhaps even intentionally so. The final movement isn't nearly as good as the first movement, although the last five minutes are quite original and interesting. I just think that the Bruckner 9th - sans 'finale' - says the same exact thing in a far more succinct and concentrated way. As I've said before, I wish that Mahler had finished the 10th and left us with just the first movement of the 9th instead. That's just me.
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l feel that the Rondo-Burlesque is the worst thing Mahler ever composed
I'm glad someone else feels the same way about the Rondo-Burlesque. I've never really liked it. Like Barry, to me the first movement is the best thing about the 9th.
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I don't think that we're supposed to like the Rondo-Burlesque, as it's easily the most genuinely angry movement that Mahler ever composed. It's also a nose-thumping to critics in general. But once you get the joke, enough already.
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Spun the Bertini Das Lied. Overall count me in the "favorable" column, but my biggest complaint is the intonation of Marjana Lipovsek. It's not bad enough warrant turning the stereo off, but just off enough to raise an eyebrow or two, and become slightly distracting. Bertini handles the textures beautifully and the band plays very well. I can't say I enjoy it as much as the Minnesota version, but I'm glad to add it to my library.
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I adore every note of M9, Rondo-Burleske included, and have for over thirty years. In my most recent obsession, top-tier recordings included Inbal, Dohnanyi, Ozawa and Masur.
I'll also mention that I have an acid test near the end of II. The waltz becomes increasingly delirious, then the tempo abruptly slows to the Ländler. It's one of Mahler's best jokes, where the ascending sixteenth notes on the horns are played absurdly fast, then the tempo gets yanked back as soon as they hit the bar line. Many conductors ruin the joke by playing the pickup notes at the slower tempo.
Masur leads a terrific first movement, and note that the NY Phil is much tighter and more precise in this live recording than in Bernstein's studio effort from the early '60s.
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I like the way that the Masur 9th is proportioned, which is also why I like the Alan Gilbert one so much also. In general, they both offer faster than usual first movements, but then don't short change us on the Adagio finale either.
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OK - I've done the Bertini M4 and M5.....
Digging it very much! M4 was beautifully played, although again I am not thrilled with the soloist singing in this series so far.
The M5 kicks all sorts of a**! The scherzo is just superbly performed and made me fall in love all over again with that movement, and that is no exaggeration.
Both winners.