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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: barry guerrero on December 30, 2006, 08:04:38 AM
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I dragged out the Karajan/BPO Mahler 5th today, after ignoring it for several years. I don't care what any one says about Karajan, it's truly one of the greatest recordings of the work. It was HvK's first Mahler recording, and just tons of rehearsal time went into its preparation. It was also one of the last recordings that HvK/BPO made in the warm acoustics of the Jesus Christus Kirche. All five movements are very good. Perhaps the funeral procession (first movement) could be a bit more lugubrious, but you sure can't fault the string playing.
Barry
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I got this disk for Christmas, and I'm looking forward to listening soon. Some months ago I heard the Adagietto from this disk on the car radio, and thought it was the most stunning version of this movement I have ever heard. It was hard to focus on driving!
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I like the way Karajan builds the final pages in the finale of this symphony. It is the most grandiose, powerful ending to the symphony that I know of. But otherwise I thought the playing of BPO wasn't really all that great sounding scrappy here and there....Maybe I too should try it again.
John,
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I like the way Karajan builds the final pages in the finale of this symphony. It is the most grandiose, powerful ending to the symphony that I know of.
John,
I've always thought that this was one of the best M5's for this exact reason. For me, a big finale is the first requirement in my enjoyment of M5. To me, an underwhelming finale pretty much ruins everything that comes before it in this symphony. I mean let's face it, this is a darkness-to-light symphony, so why go through the darkness if we are not celebrating properly at the end.
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I just listened to this for the first time last night and today I heard it again. I may be in the "honeymoon" period with this recording, but, wow...it is my favorite 5th right now. For years, nothing could top the Bernstein 5th on DG...but everything about the Karajan here feels right to me. Especially the tempos and dynamics. Strangley, I was never a big fan of the adagietto until this recording. Hear, it neither sounds like a dirge or a romantic interlude...it has a zen-like mystical quality.
Listening to the finale is a great way to bring in the new year.
I'll be able to post more details after absorbing it more.
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Im afraid i think the complete opposite, his M6 is good, his M9 very good but the fifth, with all those reported 50 hours rehearsal time - terrible. Yes they play it heart on sleeve with wild abandon you just dont get these days but the playing is so ragged in places i just cant listen to it. I am still searching for the definitive version of this symphony - it doesnt exist yet for me.
Chailly is phenomenal and would be the one, had it had more of the aforementioned 'wild abandon' of Karajan.
Barshai too is almost it but drags so much in the 3rd and 5th movements tat you find yourself urgin it on all the time.
Karajan just doesn't cut it. Listen to those 2 moments in the scherzo where the orchestra simply fall apart to an embarassing degree.
The search goes on.
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Im afraid i think the complete opposite, his M6 is good, his M9 very good but the fifth, with all those reported 50 hours rehearsal time - terrible. Yes they play it heart on sleeve with wild abandon you just dont get these days but the playing is so ragged in places i just cant listen to it. I am still searching for the definitive version of this symphony - it doesnt exist yet for me.
Chailly is phenomenal and would be the one, had it had more of the aforementioned 'wild abandon' of Karajan.
Barshai too is almost it but drags so much in the 3rd and 5th movements tat you find yourself urgin it on all the time.
Karajan just doesn't cut it. Listen to those 2 moments in the scherzo where the orchestra simply fall apart to an embarassing degree.
The search goes on.
I agree with mosschops, the Karajan M5 didn't do much for me either infact I sold it.
Also agree that his 6th is good (not great) dispite the slow Andante, comes with two very good set of songs KTL & RKL with Christa Ludwig.
I like his 4th quite a bit even though it is too smoothly played, but in this symphony I think it works OK, soprano is very good.
I very much like his M9 remake on DG Gold.
Vatz
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... infact I sold it.
Vatz
What does this mean? Did you actually get rid of a Mahler recording? Even one that you didn't like? Is this normal behavior? ;)
Am I not supposed to keep every Mahler recording that I've ever purchased? Should I be getting rid of the dreaded Maazel ones? ;D
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What does this mean? Did you actually get rid of a Mahler recording? Even one that you didn't like? Is this normal behavior? ;)
Am I not supposed to keep every Mahler recording that I've ever purchased? Should I be getting rid of the dreaded Maazel ones? ;D
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Yes I have, :o actually quite a few, all of Walter's mono recordings, Abbado's CSO M2, VPO M4, BPO M8, Zander's M5 & M6, MTT's M6 and his LSO M7, Horenstein's M7, Barbirolli's M4, M7, Litton M2, a few Naxos Mahler's and some others that I can't remember right now.
After a few listens and comparisons to other recordings that I like, if they don't stand up I dump them.
You should try it! I find another way to know if I should keep a recording is by thinking if I lost this recording (insert a CD here) would I buy it again? As for Maazel I read so many bad things about his Mahler that I never bought any, I did here his M4 from my local library, I liked it especially Kathleen Battle's singing, but not enough to buy it.
To mosschops: Have you tried Daniele Gatti's M5 on Conifer Classics with the RPO? I really like it especially for the very fast and furious opening to the 2nd mvmt.
Vatz
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Yeah, but Gatti's finale doesn't hold a candle to Karajan's (too little bass drum, for one thing), and the RPO strings are thin and lack-luster in the famous Adagietto. I'd also be curious as to precisely where the BPO is supposedly falling apart on the Karajan M5 (timings or bar numbers, please). I'm usually extremely sensitive to poor playing, as you know.
Karajan was extremely proud of his recording of the 5th Mahler, flaunting it in front of Carl Orff. I think he was right. For once, he was able to get beyond himself, and just let go. But I also feel that it's sufficiently anal in regards to detail.
Karajan's M6, on the other hand, may be superior in terms of precision and details, but it's conceptually a mis-fire. It's a case of missing the forest for the trees. The opening march is simply too fast and furious - hardly anyone does it that way anymore. But more to the point, the outer movements are fast and furious, while the two inner movements are simply too slow. I could possibly excuse all that, if it weren't for the fact that Karajan really almost drags the numereous and lengthy trio sections in the scherzo movement. And while the Philharmonie may be a better location for going after precision, this is simply the start of a long line of recordings that really almost sound like dog-doo. On top of that, the hammer strokes are sadly underwhelming. What's the point of getting tons of little details right, if you're going to miss such an obvious and major one? Like the famous Solti Mahler 8th, this is a recording that I've tried to make myself like over and over. What I've discovered is that IF I want an M6 with a fast and furious beginning (and I don't), I'll reach for Bernstein everytime - either one of them. I will say this much on Karajan's behalf: just as with the MTT/SFSO M6 recording, the Karajan one does work better if you switch the two inner movements.
Barry
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I'd also like to know where the shoddy playing occurs...even so, the total gestalt is so satisfying I problably haven't noticed (and I'm rather new to this recording).
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Oh, and I'm a huge fan of Karajan's 6th...it was the first M6 I ever heard (as a new Mahler fan in 1990), and I still go back to it often. It's my favorite Mahler 6 overall and one of my favorite records of all time.
I never tried to switch the inner movements, but I'll have to give it a try.
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get the Eschenbach; it's time to update ;)
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Hi All,
I got rid of the CD so i cant give the timings but towards the end of the scherzo at around 12 mins?
Its that bad once you hear it you will know what i mean. To some it may not be a huge problem but i think a great recording needs to be a great interpretation with great playing.
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. . . maybe you'd like the Norrigton; who knows? :-\ I really like the Markus Stenz one on ABC Classics. I was lucky enough to have a friend burn me a copy. Otherwise, you have to order it from Austrailia. But it is good; start to finish.