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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: mahler09 on June 03, 2010, 02:14:16 AM
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The seventh seems to be the one Mahler symphony that is performed the least and is the hardest for people to (initially?) digest. Any thoughts on this? I personally have always liked the piece quite a bit but was curious to hear what others think about its reputation.
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I think that's leftover stuff. These days, the 7th is probably performed as much as the other ones. Far too much nonsense has been said about the 7th over the years. Basically, it's Mahler's "concerto for orchestra", and it's another one of his darkness to light symphonies. It takes you from the darkness and tragic ending of the 6th symphony, and dumps you right on the doorstep of the 8th symphony.
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I do enjoy the 7th however i wouldnt say im completely into yet, i have the Sinopoli and Abbado M7's and while i enjoy certain movements in both i get the feeling that more can be got out of the music, thats why im going to get Macal's M7 in a few weeks. So on the whole aside from the 10th its the one i have listened to least but this year for me is a re-discovery of Mahler year, having got into Mahler when i was 22 and listened to the symphonies and collected them over the next 4 years i then went through a phase of hardly listening to any classical and probably never listened to a whole symphony. But since last November now 34 classical is firmly back on top which coincided with buying a decent seperate's hi-fi system with which to enjoy the music more. Anyway i do tend to waffle on at times :-X
Which recordings do you have Mahler09?
and Barry which would be your favourite recording?
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I think that's leftover stuff. These days, the 7th is probably performed as much as the other ones. Far too much nonsense has been said about the 7th over the years. Basically, it's Mahler's "concerto for orchestra", and it's another one of his darkness to light symphonies. It takes you from the darkness and tragic ending of the 6th symphony, and dumps you right on the doorstep of the 8th symphony.
"Leftover stuff" might be one way of looking at this work, and I like the analogy of Mahler's "Concerto for Orchestra". Another thought: It is a further Mahlerian exercise in refining his powers of orchestration, leading him to the huge world of the 8th. Had not Mahler's tragedies in life that followed the 8th not occurred, who knows what temper of works we would have had from him following the 8th?
Wade
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I've always had a soft spot for the Seventh and could never understand why it's not considered to be on a par with the others. To me it's Mahler's "fantastic symphony", full of dazzling orchestral effects and myriad moods. I think it shows us Mahler in all his facets and colours, with a big dose of humour in the Finale too. I think it was Deryck Cooke who said it was Mahler's "mad, mad, mad, mad symphony" -- and none the worse for that in my book! :D
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"and Barry which would be your favourite recording?"
Well, I like two live performances from Kent Nagano. The first one is a "pirate" of a live concert in Hamburg, and other one I've heard is on the Montreal S.O.'s website. Nagano takes the first movement a bit over 23 minutes, which sounds just right to me, but then keeps the finale slimmed down to 17:15 or so. Jansons/Oslo Phil./Simax does the same thing, but the 2nd Nachtmusik is a throw-back to the days of taking over 14 minutes for that particular movement. Today, most conductors seem to do the fourth movement in the 12 to 13 minute range, and I really prefer that. As I recall, Nagano takes around 13 minutes.
But in terms of just walking into a store, or going on to Amazon, etc., I would say either Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin/Warner Classics, or the new Jansons on Simax. Many people are big fans of the Gielen M7 on Haenssler, but Gielen fails to pick up the tempo in the back-half of the finale. His timing ends up being a bit over 18 minutes, and it just sounds a tad heavy and lethargic to me. If I were going to pick a Mahler 7th with an 18 minute finale, I would go with the Zinman. I like his a lot, in spite of that 18 minute finale.
I have a "pirate" of a live Gielen performance in Berlin. The timings are pretty much identical to his commercial recording, except that the finale is a full 45 or 50 seconds shorter. Believe it or not, that makes a pretty big difference in how it "feels".
Here's a big problem or trap with Mahler 7: many conductors who take the first movement slower (which I like), also take the finale slowly. Conversely, those who have zippy finales, often times take the first movement real quickly as well. Here's an idea: start the symphony out on the slower/heavier side, and then gradually gain speed as you slowly move towards the sun. What a concept!
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Here's a big problem or trap with Mahler 7: many conductors who take the first movement slower (which I like), also take the finale slowly. Conversely, those who have zippy finales, often times take the first movement real quickly as well. Here's an idea: start the symphony out on the slower/heavier side, and then gradually gain speed as you slowly move towards the sun. What a concept!
I wish more recordings would play this concept!
I wish I could love this symphony, but over the years the M7 has become problematic...especially the 2nd movement which can feel too long. I never could love the finale...it gets rather tedious in spots.
That said, there are recordings that help me like this work...
The Barenboim is one, and so is the Schwarz, Macal and Kobayashi. Also I feel the Kondrasin M7 on Tahra is an excellant recording.
--Todd
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Yes, I've forgotten the Schwarz M7 - that's another very good one. I don't care for the "oily" ascending slide on the solo violin, right at the start of the 4th movement. But that's not a deal breaker by any means.
The Kondrashin is very good - very well played - but it's awfully fast from start to finish. I find it a tad breathless. I also think that the Russians play every bit as well on his Melodiya one, which is now difficult to find.
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Sorry to bring up MTT again but this thread gave me excuse to listen to his M7/SFSO recording for the first time, and I'm very impressed...I actually LOVE the Finale in this recording. Overall I like his approach...I can't compare it to his earlier M7/LSO because its been so long since I heard that one.
But his SFSO/M7 is great!
--Todd
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It's not the finale of MTT's S.F. performance that bothers me. It's some of the other movements instead. In particular, I don't like how the first movement is performed at a tempo that's so fast, that it's basically faster than much of the finale. Musically, that feels quite dumb to me - thoughtless. Think of the Beethoven 7th, where B. keeps conductors from taking the first movement TOO fast by writing an endless series of "daaaaah-da-dum" rhythms. Maybe Mahler should have done the same thing because you can only play those rhythms SO fast, and that's it! There's sometimes a tendency to "race" with the principal theme of the first movement when, in fact, Mahler just calls it an "ordinary" allegro.
Also, the second movement (first Nachtmusik) - a movement you don't care that much for anyway, Todd - has absolutely ZERO atmosphere or creepiness on his S.F. recording - it's just there! That movement is done far better on his earlier L.S.O. one.
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For me, it's not the finale of MTT's S.F. performance that bothers me. It's some of the other movements instead. In particular, I don't like how the first movement is performed at a tempo that's so fast, that it's basically faster than much of the finale. Musically, that feels quite dumb to me - thoughtless. Think of the Beethoven 7th, where B. keeps conductors from taking the first movement TOO fast by writing an endless series of "daaaaah-da-dum" rhythms. Maybe Mahler should have done the same thing because you can only play those rhythms SO fast, and that's it! There's sometimes a tendency to "race" with the principal theme of the first movement when, in fact, Mahler just calls it an "ordinary" allegro.
Also, the second movement (first Nachtmusik) - a movement you don't care that much for anyway, Todd - has absolutely ZERO atmosphere or creepiness on his S.F. recording - it's just there! That movement is done far better on his earlier L.S.O. one.
I love the thematic material of the 2nd movement but it is a challenging listen, and I'm not sure why, and it bugs me I don't get this particular movement. I'm surprised to hear it should be creepy sounding, since I've never heard it that way. To me, every recording I hear seems to play it romantic, and sometimes I feel this is background music for an outside get together with friends. It goes on and on and I feel the musical argument is not varied enough. I WANT to love it I really do, and sometimes there is a performance that helps me love it, like the Barenboim mentioned earlier.
The whole M7 haunts my listening life, as it's the last nut I haven't cracked with Mahler, and perhaps that's a good thing. Perhaps the whole work is really just social night music like Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusic? The music of the M7 reminds me of the rarefied air of DLvdE, each movement projecting a different objective picture with no subjectivity added...purely show and no tell. This is how I hear Macal conduct this work and this is an intriguing concept and seems to work with the M7.
The M7 was the first work of Mahler I heard live and for many years the M7 was my favorite symphony. It's always been a mysterious work and perhaps I've been over anxious to get some answers and this is the cause for my frustration with the work the last few years. It is a very important and transitional work in Mahler's ouevre and I think for personal reasons I've been too hard on it. Perhaps I need to relax and just let the music wash over me like I once did.
--Todd
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Dave Hurwitz really admires the first Nachtmusik, and has done a pretty good analysis of it that doesn't rely on a lot of technical terms. I like it too. But the funny thing is that - for me, anyway - it works better when it's not taken much faster than 16 minutes. Perhaps because of - as you put it - a certain lack of thematic interest, the first Nachtmusik actually sounds too long, to me, when it's taken too quickly. I feel that it's far more "nocturnal" sounding than the fourth movement. When taken slower, the principal theme area actually makes a stronger contrast to the somewhat quicker second subject. Another small point that's quite important to me: I want to HEAR those bloody cowbells behind those lonely sounding horn signals. That little passage sounds somewhat empty and dumb when you can't hear the cowbells bonging away in the background. I've read that Mahler was allegedly inspired by Rembrandt's "Night Watchmen". Sure enough, much of the second movement strikes me that, narratively speaking, a night patrol could be wondering around in the woods, brushes, and along the shores of local lakes, etc. As well as being a "darkness to light" symphony and his "concerto for orchestra", his 7th symphony strikes me as being a sort of Mahlerian travel log too. It's all there: Bohemian woods & fields (Smetana!); Alpine meadows; an Italian serenade, complete with mandolin and acoustic guitar; cafe music; big city excitement - you name it. I really like the 7th, and I'm convinced that Bartok must have been familiar with it.
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Dave Hurwitz really admires the first Nachtmusik, and has done a pretty good analysis of it that doesn't rely on a lot of technical terms. I like it too. But the funny thing is that - for me, anyway - it works better when it's not taken much faster than 16 minutes. Perhaps because of - as you put it - a certain lack of thematic interest, the first Nachtmusik actually sounds too long, to me, when it's taken too quickly. I feel that it's far more "nocturnal" sounding than the fourth movement. When taken slower, the principal theme area actually makes a stronger contrast to the somewhat quicker second subject. Another small point that's quite important to me: I want to HEAR those bloody cowbells behind those lonely sounding horn signals. That little passage sounds somewhat empty and dumb when you can't hear the cowbells bonging away in the background. I've read that Mahler was allegedly inspired by Rembrandt's "Night Watchmen". Sure enough, much of the second movement strikes me that, narratively speaking, a night patrol could be wondering around in the woods, brushes, and along the shores of local lakes, etc. As well as being a "darkness to light" symphony and his "concerto for orchestra", his 7th symphony strikes me as being a sort of Mahlerian travel log too. It's all there: Bohemian woods & fields (Smetana!); Alpine meadows; an Italian serenade, complete with mandolin and acoustic guitar; cafe music; big city excitement - you name it. I really like the 7th, and I'm convinced that Bartok must have been familiar with it.
Great post Barry! I really like your description of this work as a Mahlerian travel log...that makes a lot of sense. It's also interesting to hear your idea regarding the timing of the 1st Nachtmusik, which you mention loses it's character if taken too quickly. Much food for thought here. I presume I can find Dave Hurwitz's analysis in his book and I'll have to read that soon. I think a good analysis will bring me back into the world of the M7, as your description of the 1st Nachtmusik has just done.
I must say I am still really fond of the 1st movement and often find the episodes quite emotional and "wunderhorn"-like in places. The scherzo, on the other hand, has a strange sense of humor and I wonder if the music is ironic or really projecting fear. Scherchen seems to think so in regards to "fear," at least in his Toronto account. The 2nd Nachtmusik has a certain romantic glow, it really does sound like night music in the open air.
--Todd
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"The scherzo, on the other hand, has a strange sense of humor and I wonder if the music is ironic or really projecting fear"
I'd say both. With the scherzo, things are truly going bump in the night, but the whole thing turns humorous and light hearted towards the end, beginning with that strange, carnival sounding tune in the low brass toward located a few minutes before the end of it. At that point, the whole symphony shifts from primarily darkness, to primarily light. In a sense, the scherzo is a microcosm or metaphor for the entire symphony. I'm convinced that Bartok must have modeled his "Concerto For Orchestra" on Mahler's most developed, five movement, arch form symphony.
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BeethovensQuill- I own the Chailly version, which I like very much. I think it follows Barry's comment with regards to the speed of the movements as well, which are as follows:
1. Langsam- 24:53
2. Nachtmusik, Allegro moderato- 16:19
3. Scherzo, Schattenhaft, Trio- 10:31
4. Nachtmusik, Andante Amoroso- 13:40
5. Rondo-Finale- 19:02
That being said, I have also listened the Bernstein and Abbado versions a few times. I'm thinking about investing in the Abbado soon...
I had never thought of the concerto for orchestra analogy before, but it fits perfectly. I also agree that Bartok must have been familiar with this symphony. However, Mahler has an almost chamber music approach in all of his symphonies with his use of the individual instruments...
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"The scherzo, on the other hand, has a strange sense of humor and I wonder if the music is ironic or really projecting fear"
I'd say both. With the scherzo, things are truly going bump in the night, but the whole thing turns humorous and light hearted towards the end, beginning with that strange, carnival sounding tune in the low brass toward located a few minutes before the end of it. At that point, the whole symphony shifts from primarily darkness, to primarily light. In a sense, the scherzo is a microcosm or metaphor for the entire symphony. I'm convinced that Bartok must have modeled his "Concerto For Orchestra" on Mahler's most developed, five movement, arch form symphony.
This is great, thanks for this description of the Scherzo...gives me more to listen for!
By the way, I'm listening to the Kondrashin/RCO/Tahra at work and I believe his M7 is my top M7 at this point. It really is exciting and excellant at presenting the exciting twists and turns of the score!
(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/5212_coverpic.jpg)
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Happened to see the Zinman M7 at Borders this afternoon and picked it up. I really loved the performance on first hearing! The sonics were better than anticipated and the performance had a nice flow. I need to hear it more before I get into details.
--Todd
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Happened to see the Zinman M7 at Borders this afternoon and picked it up. I really loved the performance on first hearing! The sonics were better than anticipated and the performance had a nice flow. I need to hear it more before I get into details.
--Todd
Yes, but I think overall Zinman's M7th is NOT as successful as his 6th.
Above all, it SOMEWHAT lacks character and is a little too uneventful.
John,
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Overall, my greatest M7ths remain,
1) Lenny/NYPO/Sony
2) Lenny/NYPO/DG
3) Kobayashi/CPO/Canyon
4) Gielen/SWO/Interchord
and honorable mentions go to: Schwarz, Jansons (OPO), MTT(LSO), Inbal(FRSO), Barenboim(SB)
John,
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Jon, I thought there was plenty of excitement in Zinman's M7, I think I enjoyed it as much as his M6 after the first hearing. The Finale provides a lot of punch with great sonics. The first movement is full of beauty. I can understand the criticisms regarding his moderation in the first and last movements, but my first impression feels Zinman's plan works.
At the moment, my top M7 list is:
1. Kondrashin
2. Schwarz
3. Barenboim
4. Lenny/NYPO
5. Zinman
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Todd,
I will definitely try the Zinman again in the next couple of days. But my initial impression was as what I described (I am sure Barry agrees on this too).
I just feel that Lenny owned this piece.
His uncanny treatment of the middle movts. alone puts a unique stamp on his recording (Sony or DG).
There was a pirate recording of Lenny's concert with NYPO from the mid 80's (NOT the same as the DG recording). I used to own it but the CDR got deteriorated over the years, thus I am unable to to listen anymore. That was the greatest Lenny-conducted M7th ever. Period. Great balance, perfect tempo with all the Lennian neurosis and megalomaniac gestures intact and stamped all over the place.
John,
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Fans of the Seventh should consider the Kubelik/New York Philharmonic version. This interpretation contrasts with his earlier two (one, in studio, on DG, and one, live, on Audite, both very consistent, both with BRO, even if the Audite's set sound is not satisfactory), witnessing a change of concept of the work by Kubelik. It seems he is narrating the story of the travel through the night depicted in magical sounds by Mahler (Dear Barry, if you consider the Seventh as "a sort of Mahlerian travel log too", you should read D. Mitchell's article "Mahler on the move: his Seventh Symphony"-you can find it on "Discovering Mahler, writings on Mahler, 1955-2005", Boydell & Brewer).
Timings are on the slow side, but we can't put the question simply in terms of "slow" and "fast", because it depends always on what happens within these spaces of time. Perceving slow as slow and fast as fast means that phrasing, fluctations of tempos, transitions, attention to dynamics and to overall shape and details etc.. failed to make feel us the choice of tempos perfectly logical and meaningful.
Luca
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I know the Kubelik/N.Y. one, and I agree that it's very good. There is, however, one technical point that bugs me a bit: Kubelik has the tambourine part played on a military side-drum (like a snare drum with the snares switched off). But beyond that small point; yes, it's very good.
B.
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Barry,
when I hear details such the one you have mentioned, I always suspect it has to do with critical/uncritical/pre-critical/or corrupted editions. Consider, for example, bars 782/783 of M5 Finale in the Jansons/Concertgebouw recording: timpanist thunders a ff B flat roll (dim. to pp in bar 783) that is present only in the Peters/Leipzig edition of 1904 (while I don't know if it is still present in the 1963 edition , I'm sure these two bars are not present in 1989 and 2005 editions). Did someone, at the Concertgebouw, forget to make the correction? This is a very curious case, because the same Jansons, in his BRO recording follows the last critical edition even in this detail.
Luca
P.S.
Sorry, but among the Sevenths which worth to hear and not yet mentioned in this thread, I have forgotten the Abravanel/Utah Symphony. Ok, today it can't be considered "top choice" and it's not at the same level of his Fourth (a reference recording of the work), nevertheless it has its moments.
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So, I'll allow you to call me crazy, but my problem with Mahler's 7th is, that I feel that I can't breath normally while listening to the first movement. It's not only the mood that is creepy, it might be the orchestration that sounds so muffeld and well, I get this suffocating feeling.
Very strange ...
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"it might be the orchestration that sounds so muffeld"
Interesting. That might be another argument for NOT taking the first movement too fast (as it so often times is taken). The orchestration IS quite dense. But more to the point, the harmony is quite rich, with very rapid chord changes. In addition, it's contrapuntally rich and dense as well. I just think that the listener needs a bit more time for all that harmonically rich polyphony (numerous simultaneous voices) to sink in.
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Speaking of the first movement, I was just listening to the Zinman M7 again this afternoon, and have to say the first movement is paced beautifully...he really makes it coherent! The tempo is right on!
--Todd
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I haven't heard the Zinman version yet. How do you think it compares to Bernstein or Chailly?
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I previously owned the Chailly but not the Bernsteins. The Zinman is across the board faster than either. Zinman's timings are akin to Abbado/BPO, Leaper/OFdGC, and Bertini/Köln, three versions I also like very much. Whatever the sound quality, Chailly's was much too slow for my liking in the first and last movements. I've been curious to hear the DGG/NYPO, but the long inner movement timings make me cautious.
Zinman Tonhalle Orchestra Zürich 22.01 15.83 10.20 12.37 18.12 78.53
Bernstein New York Philharmonic 21.65 17.08 10.52 14.70 18.35 82.30
Chailly Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra 24.85 16.20 10.38 13.47 19.32 84.22
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I haven't heard the Zinman version yet. How do you think it compares to Bernstein or Chailly?
I haven't heard the Chailly...but in comparing Zinman to Bernstein I have to say Lenny's is hard to beat in terms of drama, color and forward motion. ON the other hand, Zinman provides a cooler look into this score not heard in Lenny's account. By "cooler" I mean Zinman plays the M7 straight (but not boring). Because of this the spooky parts and romantic parts suddenly jump out you, surprising you and providing contrast with the straightforward tempos that serve to highlight the details of the score and harmonic progression. AND the sonics are among the most impressive for M7 on SACD. I'm glad to have these two different approaches on hand.
--Todd
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From what I've read the Zinman seems to be a direct contrast to what I've heard. Another CD to look into!
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Todd, I think you've made a very good description of the Zinman Mahler 7. I would say that his is a lot like Haitink, before Haitink became slower and duller. In a sense, that makes his rather similar to Edo De Waart's under-rated M7. I don't think that I would say that the Zinman is my very favorite M7, but it's not one that I would boot out of my collection either. It's a keeper.
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I'm late to this M7 party, but count me in as a HUGE FANATIC of this piece!!!! During my Mahler "dating" period, I did M5, M6, and M7 in that order, and by the time I got to M7, I knew I was a lifetime memberr. It snowballed from there.
To my ears, his orchestration in M7 is hard to beat - and I think his only other symph that gives it a run for its money in its architectural craftsmanship is M9, but that is me. The first movement just kills me - it is just pure genius. Listen to the harmonic structure ONLY sometime - it will blow you away. And we ain't even talking about the counterpoint, melodies, themes, structure, etc , etc yet.
I own a bunch of M7's and I like all of them for different reasons but nobody has mentioned Boulez yet. It is not a perfect recording overall, but I have yet to find any conductor NAIL the middle section of mvt. I where the harps do a glissando that melts into trilling flutes. THat part always reminds me of some fairy tale castle (yes sounds corny) but makes me feel like a kid again. Boulez in his relentless perfectionism just owns small details such as this part - most conductors just gloss over this detail. I'm sure Mahler would smile if he heard that Boulez recording because the stuff printed on the page comes off.
The next one is the one I still struggle with (M8).
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PS - a search of "Mahler 7 Bernstein" at youtube will turn up a pro shot recording of Lenny conducting M7 with the Wiener Phil.
I'm on the 2nd mvmt now and digging it! ;D
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I haven't heard the Zinman version yet. How do you think it compares to Bernstein or Chailly?
I haven't heard the Chailly...but in comparing Zinman to Bernstein I have to say Lenny's is hard to beat in terms of drama, color and forward motion. ON the other hand, Zinman provides a cooler look into this score not heard in Lenny's account. By "cooler" I mean Zinman plays the M7 straight (but not boring). Because of this the spooky parts and romantic parts suddenly jump out you, surprising you and providing contrast with the straightforward tempos that serve to highlight the details of the score and harmonic progression. AND the sonics are among the most impressive for M7 on SACD. I'm glad to have these two different approaches on hand.
--Todd
My initial reaction to Zinman's M7th wasn't all that hot. But on repeated hearings this recording grows on me. Overall, I think it is as successful as his M6th recording, if not better. You just need to turn the volume way up to appreciate it fully. Yes, the sonics are among the best I've ever heard.
Can't wait for Zinman's M9th! :D ;D
John,
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I have just listened to M7 by Rattle , the recording in the EMI anniversary boxset, and i MUST proclaim here my enthusiasm about the Rondo-Finale ! it' simply fantastic of cleverness, impertinence,humour, imagination, really exciting from A to Z. I don't like all the movements as much.2 and 3 are very good too.
Nobody in this topic about M7 quoted the Solti CSO recording,which is for the time my favourite.