Author Topic: O.T.: "The Trojens" (Berlioz)  (Read 6397 times)

Offline barry guerrero

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O.T.: "The Trojens" (Berlioz)
« on: April 21, 2010, 03:52:33 PM »
I struggle with opera, which is why I'm asking for input. Berlioz is a composer whom I really like, as I consider him to be one of the precussors to Mahler. But I've never listened my through "Les Troyens". My question is this: does the musical content of "Les Trojens" justify its outrageous length? I'd like only people who really know this topic to try to answser that question.

What I've heard of the few excerpts of Les Troyens, really doesn't peak my interest that much. But that might not mean much. After all, "Don Giovanni" is a through-composed work; a work in which its totality is far greater than the sum of its parts. Would you say that the same is true with "Les Trojens"?

I'm asking because I'm told that the one available dvd of Berlioz's historic epic is really quite good. Any input regarding that particular dvd would be helpful as well. I know that Mahler was a big fan of Berlioz's "Damnation Of Faust", well as the good-old "Symphonie Fantastique".

Would Mahler have been a big fan of "Les Trojens" as well, if the score and parts had been readily available during his day?

Barry G.

Offline waderice

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Re: O.T.: "The Trojens" (Berlioz)
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2010, 07:49:30 PM »
Barry,

I'm quite familiar with this opera, through the Davis and Dutoit complete recordings, and somewhat with the much-earlier pirated Beecham.  I have also, an aircheck recording of the Metropolitan Opera production premiere of the work in 1974 by Rafael Kubelik, and I recall Milton Cross commenting enthusiastically during performance that it was unlike anything he had ever seen.  Also, I've seen an orchestral study score of the work, and the writing is excellent in many parts, particularly the ballets in the third act.  This is based on my familiarity of Berlioz with having performed in the past, his Requiem, the Te Deum, and an opera chorus concert that featured the Roman Carnival Chorus from Benvenuto Cellini.  One of my big disappointments years ago was the choral group I was then with could possibly have become involved in a performance of Berlioz' Romeo and Juliet symphony, but the Orchestre de Paris decided not to perform the work on their visit to Washington, DC.

I remember seeing somewhere a long time ago, a comment in a Berlioz biography that Berlioz composed similarly to Mozart; that is, in a linear style.  Also, Berlioz followed the recitative and aria format for his operas, though on a much-expanded style, for larger orchestra, as we obviously know.  Les Troyens was no exception.  Berlioz and Wagner knew each other, and Berlioz was familiar with Wagner's operas he composed prior to the Ring, Meistersinger, and Tristan.  I also remember reading somewhere that Wagner played excerpts of Tristan to Berlioz, and it was said that Berlioz was "bewildered" by the music; though to what extent, I don't know.

Berlioz, being a classical romanticist in excelsis, was inspired not only by Shakespeare, but also by Greek mythology.  The Aeneid, on which Les Troyens was based, is the work that stuck with Berlioz much of his life, reading it with his father in his youth.  In later years, the Princess Carolyne Sayne von Wittgenstein (not sure if I spelled her name correctly), one of Franz Liszt's many women he had affairs with, urged Berlioz to take up composition of Les Troyens, telling him that it would be his crowning work in glory.  Berlioz resisted initially, saying that if he were to compose the opera, it would never be performed.  But the continued urging by the Princess caused Berlioz to give in and to compose the colossus it is.  What might seem to listeners that Les Troyens isn't a "through-composed" work is because it is a series of happenings/scenes based on a specific already-written work.  Don Giovanni was based on a legend, and Mozart was fortunate to have a genius librettist in da Ponte to write the libretto for it.  How more lucky can you get in having da Ponte as your librettist?  Berlioz had to compose his own libretto for Les Troyens, and that might be the primary factor which weakens the work.

In the past, whenever Les Troyens was performed, many conductors made considerable cuts to shorten the performing time.  Conductors were scared that it dwarfed anything that was composed by Wagner, in terms of length.  Even at its premiere, Berlioz was forced to sacrifice the first two acts (the siege of Troy) and stage the next three acts as "The Trojans at Carthage", with an overture that he was forced by artistic reasons to compose for the premiere.  These fears were unfounded, and as it turned out, Les Troyens is shorter time-wise than Meistersinger or Goetterdaemmerung to perform complete.  The problem in performing Les Troyens is 1) having enough money to stage it, as it requires elaborate sets and costumes, and 2) a stage large enough on which to perform it according to Berlioz' intentions.

Now, on to your questions:

First, it all depends on what you consider to be "bad" musical content.  Yes, Les Troyens has its share of weak spots in composition.  Note my earlier comment about Les Troyens being composed based on an already-written work vs. a legend.  Wagner's operas also have their weak points, as I'm sure you well know.  There also is the problem of audience familiarity with a given work.  Obviously, Wagner's operas have been performed considerably more than Berlioz'.  And most audiences have more of a problem with opera sung in French than German, though that doesn't keep them from coming to the opera house in droves to see/hear Bizet's Carmen.

Second, it is difficult to tell whether or not Mahler would have been a fan of Les Troyens.  He and so many other conductors during his time were swept away by the phenomenon of Wagner, with his concept of music drama, leitmotiv, etc., etc.  Other than Italian opera (Rossini, Verdi), Mozart and Wagner were the composers during Mahler's time to go to in opera.  I've read in Henry-Louis de la Grange's Mahler biography that Mahler performed the Symphonie Fantastique regularly and attended a performance of the Requiem at one point.  I know of no other incidences of Mahler performing Berlioz' music, and have seen no evidence that he disliked Berlioz' music.  Where did you see that Mahler was a fan of La Damnation de Faust?  I think the problem was one of Mahler's inaccessibility to Berlioz' music.  By the time Mahler gave any concerts in France, he was so busy with his own compositions and conducting concerts/opera, that he probably didn't have time to study any other Berlioz compositions while there.

I suggest that if you have access (borrowing privileges) to a college library that might have a recording and a study score of Les Troyens, check those out and give the work a listen/study.  The Davis recording is the preferable one, if you find choices.  You can then make your own determination whether or not the musical content of Les Troyens justifies it length.

Wade

P.S. - After typing all this, I'm reminded of a scene from a "Star Trek: The Next Generation" episode where Commander Riker comes into Captain Piccard's quarters and happens upon Piccard listening to an opera aria.  Riker asks "Bizet?"  Piccard answers "No, Berlioz".  What you hear was Hylas' Song from the fifth act of Les Troyens.  Hylas was a Greek sailor stuck at Carthage and was singing about his being homesick for his native land while Aeneas is involved in his passion for the Queen of Carthage, Dido.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2010, 09:24:25 PM by waderice »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: O.T.: "The Trojens" (Berlioz)
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2010, 05:53:45 AM »
Thank you so much. I promise that I'm going to follow through on this.

Barry

Offline Zoltan

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Re: O.T.: "The Trojens" (Berlioz)
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2010, 12:13:50 PM »
P.S. - After typing all this, I'm reminded of a scene from a "Star Trek: The Next Generation" episode where Commander Riker comes into Captain Piccard's quarters and happens upon Piccard listening to an opera aria.  Riker asks "Bizet?"  Piccard answers "No, Berlioz".  What you hear was Hylas' Song from the fifth act of Les Troyens.  Hylas was a Greek sailor stuck at Carthage and was singing about his being homesick for his native land while Aeneas is involved in his passion for the Queen of Carthage, Dido.

Small correction: it was in the movie "Star Trek: First Contact".

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: O.T.: "The Trojens" (Berlioz)
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2010, 06:34:31 AM »
I had a long discussion on the pros and cons of "The Trojans" with a friend of mine, who happens to really love the piece. In fact, he finds very few "cons" about it. I wasn't aware that this particular friend knew the work so well.

Barry

Offline waderice

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Re: O.T.: "The Trojens" (Berlioz)
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2010, 06:57:33 PM »
Barry

I hope your friend's "pro" comments, in addition to mine, are beneficial to you in your efforts in coming to appreciate one of the major neglected works of all music.

Wade

Offline waderice

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Re: O.T.: "The Trojens" (Berlioz)
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2010, 05:24:45 PM »
Barry,

Is this the DVD of Les Troyens you were originally referring to, or the Metropolitan Opera production?

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Berlioz-Les-Troyens-Blu-ray/10471/

Wade

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: O.T.: "The Trojens" (Berlioz)
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2010, 07:08:56 PM »
Yes, I've seen this one in several stores.

Offline waderice

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Re: O.T.: "The Trojens" (Berlioz)
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2010, 09:07:59 PM »
Barry,

Though I hadn't seen or heard of this particular production until I found it at Blu-Ray.com, I might suggest a bit of caution before taking the plunge and purchasing this particular performance for these reasons:

1)  John Eliot Gardner, excellent musician that he is, performs his Berlioz in a similar fashion to that of Roger Norrington's Mahler; that is, with lack of instrumental vibrato.  His recording of the Symphonie Fantstique, made years ago, was similar and interesting, and featured four small harps as opposed to two normal ones as is usually done, and Ophicleides, instead of tubas, as is usually done.  I was particularly interested with his performance having Ophicleides, which would be closer to Berlioz' intended original sound.
2)  The sets and costumes from the screen shots of this production do not impress me.  They seem a bit like that of how Wagner is currently staged, more of a modern or avant garde style.  I prefer traditional staging and costumes (kind of like that in the movie, "Troy") over that of an unconventional production, but that is me.
3)  The Metropolitan Opera DVD performance features conventional staging and costumes.  It may not have as good a picture as the high definition one by Gardner you're considering, but is played more conventionally than Gardner probably does.  The Met performance has James Levine conducting with Jessye Norman as Dido and Placido Domingo as Aeneas.

You might wait to see other critical reviews on this performance before purchasing it.  They will likely compare it with the Met performance.

Wade
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 10:27:08 PM by waderice »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: O.T.: "The Trojens" (Berlioz)
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2010, 06:01:24 AM »
Thank you for the heads-up. Will do.

Offline waderice

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Re: O.T.: "The Trojens" (Berlioz)
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2010, 01:58:14 PM »
Barry,

I should have been clearer in my earlier recommendation of Les Troyens recordings, specifically those made by Colin Davis.  You may be aware by now, that Davis made two recordings of Les Troyens.  The earlier one on Philips, made in 1969, was a studio recording, and to my ears, has the best balance between quality of singing and orchestral playing.  If you're able to locate an LP copy of this somewhere, the color photographs on the covers of the two booklets give an idea of how immense the production at Covent Garden at that time must have been.

Davis' second recording was an in-concert one made in late 2000 by the LSO in their LSO Live series.  The singing in this recording is not as good as the earlier one, but the orchestral playing is marvelous.  The LSO is definitely the star in this recording.  In the thirty years between the two recordings, orchestral musicians have certainly done their homework in learning the masterwork that Les Troyens definitely is.

Happy listening!

Wade

 

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