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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: john haueisen on June 27, 2008, 06:22:17 PM
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Which recording of M6 has the best cowbells?
Yes, I understand that some would consider this merely a subjective judgement, but I've heard some good cowbells, some faux cowbells, and some bells that were barely audible, if indeed they were even cowbells.
So what's your favorite M6 cowbells performance?
--John H
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Hi John,
My favorite cowbell recording is:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/215QH36X1JL._SL500_AA130_.jpg)
Sanderling with the St.Petersberg
I also like:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/210VZ4FGVDL._SL500_AA180_.jpg)
Karajan and BPO
The M6 on the Bertini EMI box is pretty darn good too if I recall correctly.
There are quite a few more ...but I can't get my brain to crank this morning!
--Todd
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Actually, I like Bernstein's cowbells in that latest Sony JPN reissue. That was the one thing I thought was positively ear-catching in it in a sort of entertaining way. They seem to have stood out more than in any others I remember from the top of my mind. Does that make it "the best"? Maybe. Elsewhere they then maybe kind of blend in differently, become part of something else and stop being such distinct cowbells.
PT
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Which recording of M6 has the best cowbells?
Yes, I understand that some would consider this merely a subjective judgement, but I've heard some good cowbells, some faux cowbells, and some bells that were barely audible, if indeed they were even cowbells.
So what's your favorite M6 cowbells performance?
--John H
I've seen and heard livestock with crudely fashioned bells with roughly cast clappers. The cowbell sounds in the first movement after #21 that suit my vision are earthy, irregular, and with some tonal variety; they should not sound as though struck by a mallet, whirling on an axle, shaken in unison, or variously like sleigh bells, plates, chimes, or wooden blocks. Of the recordings that had something like the sound I envision, I'd include Bernstein/VPO, Boulez/VPO, Janson/RCO, Chailly/RCO, and Herbig/Saarbrüken.
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For me, the sound that comes closest to what I remember hearing "in der Ferne" (in the distance) on a daily basis in Luzern, can be heard on Chailly's Concertgebouw recording. But then again, somebody else said that it sounded more like people banging coconuts together. Regardless, That high pitched, "tinkly" sound that is so common is definitely wrong. Cows do not wear small bells, or goat bells. I saw and heard many large, low pitched cowbells in Switzerland.
Even though I'm not a big fan of the Karajan M6, I agree that the cowbells are good on that one as well. I think that they're reasonably good on the Bertini/Cologne M6 too.
Barry
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Just a follow-up on my neighbor's collection of cowbells.
For those who have never heard various real cowbells, many of them have much more of what I'd call a "flat black" tone, or a clanking sound, than what we think of when we hear the term "bells." Sometimes they sound more like marbles, shaking inside a tin can. They appear to be made of sheets of brass with lightweight clappers inside.
Does anyone know if the beautiful cast bronze Swiss cowbells that are often available for sale are ever actually used on real cows?
--John H
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Best cowbells: Bertini
Worst cowbells: Levine (I think he really hates them--he just wants an isolated "clink" or two)
I have a terrific set of cowbells I picked up near Neuschwanstein in Bavaria--they sell them in all sizes all over the countryside, so I got an assortment of seven, all differently pitched but quite musical in tone, and with surprising carrying power (got to find that cow). I've used them several times in the Sixth and they sound fabulous. Still, Bertini's combination of atmosphere and playing is really magical. If any of you have that performance, give it a spin and let me know what you think. I also agree that Bernstein and Chailly are excellent.
Dave H
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Does anyone know if the beautiful cast bronze Swiss cowbells that are often available for sale are ever actually used on real cows?
--John H
Only on tourist cows. :D
Sorry, John. Couldn't resist it.
. & '
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I'm not sure I'm getting this right: are there some "regional" differences among cowbells? "Swiss," "Bavarian,"... Finnish? I spent all summers of my childhood, far into the formative years of my youth, at our family's ancestral farm with the result that the sound of cowbells became permanently etched on my brain (this ineradicable aural memory is one of the areas where I can really relate to GM's own influences). They are kind of dull and clanky and not very sonorous but, as Dave says, really carry far and have of course differences among them so you can tell who's where and with whom. Bernstein on Sony comes pretty close to what I can still recall of them at will, whenever and wherever, but maybe my hearing has a national bias? A little like the way we can hear winds, strings, and so on colored by our local traditions, materials, associated contexts, and so forth. Or is there just one international cowbell sound that has destroyed the rich variety there used to be among regional and national cowbells? Are Mahler LPs and CDs to blame for such a homogenizing tendency?
You can tell I'm bored tonight, but my question is in earnest.
PT
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Or is there just one international cowbell sound that has destroyed the rich variety there used to be among regional and national cowbells? Are Mahler LPs and CDs to blame for such a homogenizing tendency?
PT
Or could it be that there are limited sources of cowbells available to orchestras? Maybe even the same supplier is providing them all? Or is there just a "standard cowbell" in musical supply houses?
What other composer uses cowbells?
. & '
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Well, as I'm sure you all know, cowbells without clappers are quite common in pop music, and they tend to be rectangular boxes that flare out from top to bottom. Even with clappers, they sound very different from the horseshoe-shaped Bavarian cowbells, or the round, tin can-shaped models (which have a very dry tone). I had several sets of Indian cowbells that were quite different from anything found in Europe that I have seen, and aside from differences in size and shape there can be big differences in materials, all of which have a major effect on tone. The issue in Mahler, to the extent there is one, I feel is not so much finding "authentic" alpine cowbells as much as it is simply achieving the atmospheric effect he wanted--a random, unpitched, but evocative tone that produces a feeling of distance, loneliness, nostalgia, and withdrawal from the world (at least in quiet spots--the finale of the Seventh is quite another matter!). If the mood is right, then so is the instrument.
Dave H
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Do the percussionists in the orchestras actually themselves go somewhere and freely pick up the cowbells they use, like you seem to have been doing? I mean, you can go pick up the cowbell you heard in that village in Bavaria, bring it along to the performance and just play it, without someone scrutinizing the quality of your purchase first? Or would there rather more often be a central cowbell distributor or even a world cowbell monopoly or perhaps a single global cowbell standard shaping at least the major-orchestra cowbell acquisition decisions, as Jot N. Tittle fears? I'm actually a bit curious how it works with such nonstandard instruments, of which there would of course be many other examples as well.
Thx,
PT
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Well, it depends on what the non-standard instrument is. Cowbells are in fact offered in percussion catalogues and come in a selection of standard sizes, but most orchestras will still authorize individual players to purchase instruments on a case by case basis. The more popular a piece is, the more likely an orchestral will add unusual instruments to its arsenal. The cowbells in Mahler (and Strauss's Alpine Symphony) offer an excellent case in point. I would be very surprised if most major orchestras don't own a good set by now, and equally suprised if many of them were not individually acquired in some non-conventional way.
If the requirements are particularly strange, sometimes the instrument may be included with the music. The nightengale in Respighi's Pines of Rome offers one example (the music comes with the necessary recording), and you used to get the four taxi-horns from An American in Paris with the parts as well. Now you can also purchase them separately for a ridiculous fee. The last time I played the piece about a decade ago they wanted $400+ for the set, so I went down to a wonderful brass junk shop in SoHo (Manhattan) and got four wonderful antique car horns of nicely differentiated pitch for $30. Similarly, most orchestras will keep complete sets of antique cymbals (crotales) for such works as Ravel's Daphnis and Chloe, but many percussionist will own just the few pitches needed for, say, Berlioz' Romeo and Juliet or Debussy's Afternoon of a Faun. And contributors here will all be familiar with different realizations in concert of the Mahler Sixth hammer blows (I used a real sledge hammer on a hollowed out tree stump). The best hammer I have heard was Philadelphia's--sort of a giant woodblock set into an elastic cradle, not too large, but phenomenally deep, resonant, and characerful (I'm not counting Zinman's electronic solution).
Certainly there's no need for anyone to scrutinize the quality of the instrument--what matters is how it sounds. If the sound is right, then there's no issue. There are a lot of very expensive, nice looking, and "official" percussion instruments that sound terrible. I once had a very tough time trying to get a good set of bells for the finale of Berlioz' Symphonie fantastique. Tubular chimes aren't really dark and creepy enough--you want a touch of impurity to the tone--and bell plates don't have the overtones or sufficient carrying power. Real church bells are out of the question--they weigh literally tons, though the NY Phil has a set on wheels (they used one memorably at the climax of Also Sprach Zarathustra and nearly killed the last stand of second violins). So I went to a plumbing supply warehouse and started banging on pipe remnants until I found the tone and pitches I needed. Bell sounds are always a problem, and no two orchestras seem to have the same instruments.
In sum, all percussionists have to be prepared to improvise as necessary. It's part of the business.
Dave H
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Wow! Thanks Dave H and others. I agree completely that the most important factor is the sound effect that is produced. I remember reading a letter that Mahler had received from a friend who had heard a hammerblow effect that he thought was exactly what Mahler was looking (or "listening") for.
John H
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Thanks, Dave. Another gap patched up in my knowledge of the domain of musical mundania (when I still had percussionist friends this kind of problematique tended to always get quite literally drowned out in their jolly society [no fault of my own]). I'll now be listening to Kagel too with fresh ears (talking about nonstandard instruments). -PT
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Real church bells are out of the question-
The Berlin Philharmonic uses church bells at the European concert 2001 in Agia Irini in Constantinople, Jansons conducting.
They play Berlioz's Fantastique, and the bells are not of large size but quite sonorous.
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"Constantinople"? I can tell you are from Athens... :)
You can try reproducing that through the telly:
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeVideoArt/Large/02/219002.jpg)
To what I understand that's the oldest church in town. Now that's really old. Been there, seen that, but not heard them bells.
(http://www.kenthaber.com/Resimler/2006/08/02/00057085.jpg)
-PT
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A late reply, but conductor Harold Faberman (an ex Boston SO percussionist IIRC) bought a set of cow bells off the cow from a farmer in Switzerland and used those in his LSO recording of the 6th symphony. (Useless Info I know, but fun trivia)
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Eric Nagamine
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"Constantinople"? I can tell you are from Athens...
Right on target PT. ;)
Now dont't you find this a nice dvd? The Fantastique has so sonorous percussion.
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Hey, why didn't anyone mention the cowbell sound of Ivan Fischer and Budapest?
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Hmmmm, it's not really the cowbells that stick in my memory from the I. Fischer M6. Instead, it's the way he begins the second subject of the first movement, the so-called "Alma theme". He just bursts right out of the starting gate, rather than making it ultra-languorous (as so many do). That, and his tidy, purposeful reading of the finale. Up until the finale, the performance is a tad light weight, I feel; which is OK, as long as everyone involved nails the finale. I'm glad I've kept that one, so I'll revisit its cowbells. What the heck!
Barry
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"Constantinople"? I can tell you are from Athens...
Right on target PT. ;)
Now dont't you find this a nice dvd? The Fantastique has so sonorous percussion.
Actually, I don't have this DVD and was only alerted to these BPO "Annual European Concerts" documents just now by you (thanks btw), so it's a forthcoming pleasure still. I really crave for the other installments as well, they seem very attractive.
PT
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I've just been listening to Thomas Sanderling's (St. Petersburg) M6.
Not only does it have one of the best "cowbell effects," but also a remarkable aliveness of the timpani and horns. Has anyone else heard this Sanderling performance?
Another question: the hammerblows in this performance: does anyone know if Sanderling is using something other than a giant mallet and wood block? It just doesn't have the dull, crushing, thud that I favor for the hammerschlag.
JH
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You might want to run this question to Dave Hurwitz in the private messages section. He gave this recording a 10/10 at Classicstoday. I used to own it, and stupidly traded it away. Then again, I still own over a dozen recordings of M6, if you include all the pirates of live performances, etc. It truly is a good one.
Barry
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Polarius T
As for Berlin Philharmonic European concert, this must be another topic but anyway:
I urge anyone to have these concerts in dvd( it's the only format they released). They are extremelly interesting.They play each year at 1st of May-the official founding day of BPO. The cities that were played are: Prague(twice), Florence,London.Meiningen,Krakow, Stockholm,Madrid, Lisbon,Constantinople, Athens, Berlin(twice), St.Petersburg, Moscow(these year), Budapest, Paris, Palermo.
The venues are not concert halls(only in Prague, Budapest , Berlin, Moscow and St.Petersburg), but monuments of great historical and cultural importance-such as: Medici palace, Escorial monastery, great churces and monasteries in Lisbon and Krakow, Odeion Herodes Atticus, Vasa museum............
There are also in this dvds very nice documentaries about these cities and venues, about music in these cities etc.
Conductors: Abbado(of course have the lion share), Haitink, Boulez, Rattle, Jansons, Barenboim, Mehta.
Soloists: Pires, Barenboim, Shaham, Kavakos, Zimmermann(vioilinist), Ax, Schaffer, Pahud, Batiasvili, Sarah Chang.........
And the final world: NOT A SINGLE NOTE BY MAHLER!!!!! :D :D :D :D
Now that's a cause for boycoting the Berliners. ;)