gustavmahlerboard.com
General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: Roffe on February 18, 2011, 02:49:24 PM
-
Is this really Mahler? Does anybody know?
Symphonisches Praeludium, for orchestra (doubtful fragment, orchestrated by Albrecht Gürsching)
Listen to it at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiRdgFLEn8M&feature=related
Roffe
-
Henri-Louis de la Grange's marathon biography of Mahler makes no mention of this work. Here is a link to that particular recording at Arkiv Music that states it is an anonymous composition, though possibly attributable to either Mahler or Bruckner:
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=7537&name_role1=1&name_id2=56050&name_role2=3&bcorder=31&comp_id=1804
In addition to the fact that the music as found in the Austrian National Library was a piano reduction, Albrecht Gürsching had to undertake the task of re-orchestrating it to how he believed it might have sounded like in that format. In all my encounters with Bruckner's orchestral music, I have never seen any mention of it possibly being from the pen of Bruckner. In addition to sounding like a combination of Mahler and Bruckner, I think it has a bit of the sound of early Richard Strauss, particularly from the era before the tone poems, such as his four-movement work, Aus Italien (at least from the texture of Gürsching's re-orchestration).
If I had to make a choice between the three composers, I would choose Bruckner because the overall flow of the work takes on the sound of how his early symphonies sounded as composed at that time (1876). If it's Bruckner, I wouldn't be surprised if it were an abandoned attempt for a movement to one of his early symphonies, or another attempt at a stand-alone work similar to his obscure Overture in G minor.
Wade
-
The Neemi Jarvi M6 recording (Chandos) is so fast, that the S.P. got added on as a bonus.
http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-Symphonisches-Praeludium/dp/B000000ASW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1298070827&sr=1-1
-
. . . "obscure Overture in G minor" (Bruckner).
It's a pretty good little overture, and it makes a terrific "name-that-composer" test question at parties (nobody guesses it!).
-
Henri-Louis de la Grange's marathon biography of Mahler makes no mention of this work.
Actually, de La Grange discusses it extensively in Appendix 1D to his Volume IV: "Apocryphal Work: A Symphonic Prelude by Mahler"? His conclusion: "Until such time as new evidence comes to light, it seems extremely unwise to ascribe this piece to Mahler". The general consensus seems to be that it is probably, if not by Bruckner himself, then from one of the Brucknerian supporters among Mahler's student colleagues, such as Hans Rott or Rudolf Krzyzanowski.
Mike Bosworth
-
. . that would make sense to me also. Thanks Mike.
-
There are a few articles about this, available on the net:
http://stgellert.com/downloads/BG_Cohrs_Bruckner_Symphonic_Prelude.pdf (http://stgellert.com/downloads/BG_Cohrs_Bruckner_Symphonic_Prelude.pdf)
http://www.chandos.net/pdf/CHAN%209207.pdf (http://www.chandos.net/pdf/CHAN%209207.pdf) (a booklet from a recording of the piece by Neeme Järvi, with notes by Peter Franklin)
Other availble texts:
An Early Symphonic Prelude by Mahler?
Paul Banks
19th-Century Music
Vol. 3, No. 2 (Nov., 1979), pp. 141-149
Das "symphonische Präludium": kein Werk Mahlers
Rudolf Stephan
Nachtrichten zur Mahler-Forschung 17 (April 1987)
I think we can safely say that's it's very, very likely NOT a work by Mahler, as these authors convincingly point out.
Freddy
-
Henri-Louis de la Grange's marathon biography of Mahler makes no mention of this work.
Actually, de La Grange discusses it extensively in Appendix 1D to his Volume IV: "Apocryphal Work: A Symphonic Prelude by Mahler"? His conclusion: "Until such time as new evidence comes to light, it seems extremely unwise to ascribe this piece to Mahler". The general consensus seems to be that it is probably, if not by Bruckner himself, then from one of the Brucknerian supporters among Mahler's student colleagues, such as Hans Rott or Rudolf Krzyzanowski.
Mike Bosworth
:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
Mike,
Thank you for setting me straight on my incorrect statement about de La Grange making no mention of the work. Shows you how much I know. I DO have Vol. IV of his Mahler biography, which I have had for a while now, but haven't had the chance to read in the less-than-one-year I've had it (it was always so expensive until recently). Additionally, I have interest in many other composers as well as Mahler, as well as non-musical interests. I often wish that there were more than one of me to try to cover a lot of uncovered ground in my interests, but I'll get around to reading de La Grange's Vol. IV of his Mahler biography. ;D
Wade
-
Thank you everybody for your input in this matter.
So, it is most likely NOT Mahler. After listening to the prelude a couple of times more, and hearing a passage here and there which sound brucknerian to my ear, I'm prepared to agree with Wade that it is probably by Bruckner or one of his pupils.
Conclusion: If something seems too good to be true, it probably is. If we want experience some hereto unknown M music, we will have to wait for the recordings of Susan M. Filler's performing versions of Scherzo in C Minor and Presto in F Major (I doubt we'll hear them in the concert hall).
Roffe
-
I've just come upon this thread.
Fwiw, the BBC broadcast the Symphonoic Prelude in C on 6.9.92 [i.e. in September]. The intro said that it been known for some time that Mahler wrote such a prelude as a schoolboy; that such a prelude turned up in the Austrian National Library tho' not in Mahler's hand; and that scholars [unnamed] saw enough indications of Mahlerian-ness to believe that it was the prelude known about. It was then described as a rather Brucknerian work.
It was performed by the Ulster Orchestra under Thomas Sanderling.
Also one of the Jarviis has recorded it tho' I have obtained that yet to see what the notes say.
When I embark on each cycle, I always start with it.
Ivor
-
In order to expand on what Ivor wrote above, I dug out my copy of the score to the Sinfonisches Präludium für Orchester (Edition Sikorski 1431, ©1981). The preface reads as follows:
* * *
Gustav Mahler wrote his "Symphonic Prelude," a student work still displaying strong signs of Bruckner's influence, in 1876. There is now no trace of the original score, but a preliminary sketch for the score, apparently made by one of Mahler's student friends, is preserved at the Austrian National Library, where it bears the pressmark Mus. Hs. 28 208. The notes on orchestration which it contains give a broad indication of the composer's intentions.
As regards the authorship of the work, Paul Banks, in his thorough analysis and criticism of its formal and stylistic aspects (An Early Symphonic Prelude by Mahler, 19th Century Music, Vol. 3 No. 2, November 1979, University of California, pp. 141–149), has shown it to be almost certainly Mahler's, the same conclusion being arrived at by Donald Mitchell and David Matthews (Gustav Mahler: The Early Years, London 1980, pp. 305–308). Here I need point only to the formal parallels and manifest thematic similarities existing between the Prelude, the opening of Mahler's early Piano Quartet and the "Waldmärchen" in the first version of "Klagendes Lied."
The task of deciphering the somewhat tattered sketch and reorchestrating the Prelude was undertaken (at the request of Peter Ruzicka, intendant of the Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra) by Albrecht Gürsching, the Hamburg composer and musicologist. With great insight and understanding he prepared a further, more differentiated sketch in which he filled in the various instrumental parts and (by dint of painstaking comparisons with Bruckner's 3rd Symphony and other early works of Mahler's), succeeded in reconstructing the score itself.
The Prelude was first performed on 19 March 1981 by the Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra, playing at the Berlin Philharmonic Hall under the direction of Lawrence Foster.
Jörg Morgener
* * *
James
-
Thanks for that, James. Most useful.
Incidentally, the Praeludium wasn't mentioned in The Mahler Companion.
Ivor
-
If we want experience some hereto unknown M music, we will have to wait for the recordings of Susan M. Filler's performing versions of Scherzo in C Minor and Presto in F Major (I doubt we'll hear them in the concert hall).
Roffe
Well, actually you can hear some hitherto unheard Mahler on a new disc by Wolfgang Holzmair. He sings two Heine song-fragments (Es fiel ein Reif and Im wunderschönen Monat Mai). These are from a very young Mahler, presumably. I once wrote an essay on them (in Dutch) - and one can read about these in The Mahler Companion, in a chapter by Jeremy Barham on some of Mahler's juvenalia.
The cd (the Holzmair one) is quite nice, but no must-have, if not for the above.
Freddy
-
Thank you for the tip Freddy.
We can, if we like, more or less disregard any Mahler music prior to "Das klagende Lied". That's when, according to himself, he "became Mahler". However, who would disregard his Piano Quartet movement and maybe some of his early songs? So, if I know myself right, those songs mentioned by Freddy will sooner or later end up in my Mahler collection, since I'm a collector, and I want everything. Unfortunately, it is no longer possible to own every recording of everything he composed, or you would definately end up in the poor house or would have to buy yourself a storage building.
Roffe
-
Oh, the text by Jeremy Barham is in The Cambridge Companion to Mahler, not The Mahler Companion.
And those two songs are fragments of some 20 bars. In the essay I wrote on these, I made a transcription of the (very difficult to read, mainly because of inkspots) manuscript. It's somewhat Schumann-esque, but not very consistent music. One can recognize some of the Mahler of the other early songs, though.
Freddy
-
Freddy
Thanks for flagging up the new Holzmair disc with the new song fragments. Arrived today. Now eager for the Presto and Scherzo to be issued.
Then I'll just be a little short on the arrangements before completenes achieved. So the champers will have to wait a little :-)
Ivor