Author Topic: Haitink 1966 M3 on Philips Originals  (Read 5841 times)

Offline akiralx

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Haitink 1966 M3 on Philips Originals
« on: June 27, 2007, 08:49:02 AM »

I have to say this is an OK version, but I was disappointed with it - mainly because it lacks the flair and individuality f my favourite M3s (Kobayashi, Boulez, Litton), Maureen Forrester sounds too lugubrious, mature, even matronly, and the Finale opens too loudly - though this may be partly the fault of the vivid recording, which I have to admit is very good for a 40+ year old recording. 

The playing too is very good.  I prefer BH's Christmas Matinee version, though I haven't heard the BPO or CSO M3s from him.

Offline Leo K

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Re: Haitink 1966 M3 on Philips Originals
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2007, 02:20:50 PM »
I highly recommend Haitink's VPO M3 during the 1995 Mahlerfeest.  One of the most exciting and colorful M3's I've ever heard. 

--Leo

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Haitink 1966 M3 on Philips Originals
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2007, 04:49:48 AM »
.    .    .   but at least the inner movements don't die on Haitink's very first M3 recording, like they do on his latest CSO one. Also, compare the very final few chords of the entire symphony between Haitink's 1966 M3 - this one, in other words - and his latest one. It's no contest, in my book.

Barry
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 06:02:20 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline sperlsco

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Re: Haitink 1966 M3 on Philips Originals
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2007, 02:52:16 PM »

I have to say this is an OK version, but I was disappointed with it - mainly because it lacks the flair and individuality f my favourite M3s (Kobayashi, Boulez, Litton), Maureen Forrester sounds too lugubrious, mature, even matronly, and the Finale opens too loudly - though this may be partly the fault of the vivid recording, which I have to admit is very good for a 40+ year old recording. 

The playing too is very good.  I prefer BH's Christmas Matinee version, though I haven't heard the BPO or CSO M3s from him.

I like all of the ones you mention above, but really prefer the Haitink/RCOA to all of them.  Haitink's first M3 has one of the best southern storm sections I've ever heard (if not quite as good as Lennie's Sony one).  His Xmas matinee is pretty good in this regard, too.  The other thing that pushes the RCOA one into my top tier of favorites is its perfectly paced and emotional finale. The Xmas concert and the Litton one are overly long for my taste.  Boulez has a well "timed" finale, but it just doesn't reach the same emotional depths as the Haitink/RCOA.  The downside to this recording is the 40+ year-old sound, especially its lack of lower end fullness.  OTOH, the Lennie/Sony one also sounds 40+ years old but that barely bothers me (it is far and away my favorite M3 -- nothing else is even close). 
Scott

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Haitink 1966 M3 on Philips Originals
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2007, 04:51:08 PM »
Obviously, there are many, many truly fine recordings of the third symphony - a situation that simply didn't exist even 15 years ago. What I think is important, is establishing some criteria of what works and what doesn't work. I think it's OK for the two outer movements to go a bit slower than usual, as long as they're really well done (and that means everybody, not just brass and strings).

But I also think it's important that the inner movements not die along the way. There needs to be a continuous flow that connects all the highlights and bigger moments. I do think it's OK - even preferable - that the of the initial tempo of scherzo not go particularly fast. But the two long posthorn episodes need to keep flowing along - those episodes chew up a whole lot of time in the third movement (shouldn't sound TOO distant either). I also think it's somewhat important that in the vocal movement, the "hinauf ziehen" (pull up) marking be observed in the oboe part. This is not a make or break deal, but it does provide some badly needed color in what is, otherwise, a very subdued movement (albeit beautiful). One thing that is truly important, is that the short choral "bim-bam" provide plenty of contrast to the two movements that surround it. In other words, it needs to be truly bright and cheery, while its brief orchestral interlude gets down and dirty - bringing out the alternating salvos of the suspended cymbal and tam-tam (so often badly underplayed, and nearly non-existant on the Haitink/CSO M3).

The last movement need not go excessively slow as long as two things happen. First, the conductor must make it clear to the upper strings and celli, when there should be lots of vibrato, and when there should be much less vibrato. In other words, characterizing each little sub-section, yet connecting the overall line. The issue of portimenti - sliding the finger on the fingerboard between notes - needs to be organized and addressed as well. Second, whether fast or slow, the climax of the long brass choral has to have some real "umph" to it. The four trombones - divided into two part writing - musn't fall down on the job; they really have to keep blowing. Also, the bass drum roll should match the sound and intensity of the rolls eminating from the two timpanists. In so many recordings, you hear the timpani, but almost nothing of the bass drum. The effect should be that of a 727 roaring down the runway. I have to admit that this partciular passage is done exceedingly well on the recent Haitink/CSO M3. The problem is, it also comes across as too litte, too late (to me, anyway).

One recording that does an excellent job of keeping the inner movements flowing along, yet not rushing the two "happy" marches (in major) in the first movement at the same time, is the Simon Rattle M3. He also does an excellent job of charachterizing each individual movement. Unfortunately, the sound just isn't that great. Also, some feel that Rattle rushes the end of the symphony too much. Fortunately for me, that doesn't bother me. I'd rather that the ending of the sixth movement - with its alternating tonic/dominant notes in the timpani - go a bit fast than excessively slow. Chailly makes a smart play by progessively lengthening the final three chords (rather than making them equal length).
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 04:58:26 PM by barry guerrero »

 

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