Author Topic: Random thoughts on S/M M10  (Read 7035 times)

Offline barry guerrero

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Random thoughts on S/M M10
« on: June 19, 2008, 08:12:40 AM »
I've listened to the Sieghart/ASO M10 several times now, and am getting more accustomed to the S/M version. I'm convinced that there was quite a bit of revising done to their score since the world premiere in Perugia. While much of it sounds even less like Mahler now, it certainly is colorfully scored in places; especially during much of the second scherzo (4th movement). It's as though S/M filtered Mahler through the ears and imagination of Luciano Berio. While the Carpenter version definitely leans towards Alban Berg in spots, S/M make me think of Berio instead. But I still have some major issues with what S/M have come up here. First, the negative comments.

Minuses:

A. I think it's a mistake to add so much percussion to the harrowing, expressionistic climax in the first movement. As I've mentioned before, I can see a mezzoforte (or forte) tam-tam stroke at the first loud outburst (Kenn Russel adds one there, near the start of his "Mahler" movie), as well as a discreet bass drum roll a few bars later - just before the spot where the second violins or violas play pizzicato notes. But that's it - no more! S/M really go off the deep end here, which has the unfortunate effect of making things seem far less dramatic, when they add percussion to the reprise of the same climax in the finale.

B. I don't think that the Purgatorio needs to tampered with as much as S/M do here. I think it's pretty much a finished product as is. I would definitely add percussion to the brief climactic passage: a cymbal crash - just as S/M do - followed by a forte tam-tam smash (instead of S/M's loud timpani roll). A few soft tam-tam strokes here and there wouln't hurt either, particularly towards the end of the Purgatorio. But at least S/M recognize that you have to do more with the brief climactic passage.

C. I think that the start of the fifth movement is messed up. First off, while Mahler only drafted this in short score, he does indicate that the drum should be a bass drum (grosse trommel), and not a military side drum. When Mahler and Alma stuck there heads out the window of their N.Y. apartment to watch the funereal services for the dead fireman, they did not describe a noise that sounded like a gun shot. They made it clear that it was a single stroke on a bass drum. Also, Mahler makes it clear that the slow ascending scales are to be played by a tuba; not string basses accompanied by plucked notes on the harp. It seems to me that S/M have chosen to copy Mazzetti at this point. I don't approve. There's nothing wrong or un-Mahlerian about the sounds made by the bass drum, followed by a tuba. I also feel that it's just dumb, not to link the last two movements with just a single shot of the drum.

D. I think that the fast development section of the fifth movement sounds a tad anemic. I don't know why, but S/M haven chosen to pull the plug during the development. It seems to me that this passage should sound very driven and aggressive. They also make too big of a contrast when the climactic passage of the "Purgatorio" movement suddenly reappears. I don't think that's necessary. This whole passage needs to drive hard, until being tripped up by the next crisis. 

E. While it's goods that S/M make some attempt to make the reprise of the first movement's expressionistic climax sound bigger in the fifth movement, I think that they way undershoot their mark here. It should be much, MUCH more frightening that they make it. That's why I thought it was a mistake for them to add so much percussion to the same climax in the first movement.

Pluses:

A. While I'm not entirely thrilled with what S/M have come with for the first scherzo (I do like the greater usage of tuba), I do think that they've achieved the strongest and most successful ending to the first scherzo so far. That said, I think that the rapid succession of cymbal strokes, just before the end, sounds totally out of character. But I do like the freer usage of percussion, especially the added snare drum on the last five notes of the movement. Frankly, I could do this ending even better. But this is a good start.

B. S/M recognize that the last two expressionistic outbursts towards the end of the second scherzo (4th movement), need to be stronger and more harrowing. Again, I would use tam-tam a lot more liberally. S/M pull the trigger on the bass drum and timpani far too often throughout their score. But hey   .    .   .   

C. At the end of the reprise of the first movement's climax (we're in the fifth movement here), the symphony's opening 12 note motto gets sounded in the brass, and then tapers down to a softer dynamic. Well, this passage is always dovetailed - more like harassed, or dogged - by a second trumpet that plays long notes that are dissonant to the opening motto. THANK GOODNESS that S/M have taken that part away from the trumpet, and have given it to something far less obtrusive sounding (I forget what they substituted for the trumpet). Personally, I would give it to the solo flute, but that's beside the point. It simply sounds a whole hell-of-a-lot better now. I have always hated that added trumpet part.

D. S/M have come up with the best version for everything that happens in the finale, AFTER the reprise of the first movement's expressionistic climax. When the high strings first turn loud - this is after playing at least 90 seconds at a soft dynamic (we're talking after the big flute solo) - S/M  have the cellos (basses too?) really hammer their ascending scale, with added tremolos on each note. Personally, I would divide this up at each cello stand; with outside cellos doing sharp attacks on each note, while the inside cellos do tremolos on each of those same notes (or vice versa). But hey, S/M manage to make this sound much more hefty and impassioned than usual.

E. There's a big climax just a couple of minutes before the very end of the symphony. In the Cooke, Mazzetti, Wheeler, and Barshai versions, this climax isn't a climax at all. Instead, it's sounded very softly and lovingly. Even as a kid, I always felt that this passage had to be played loudly. S/M build it up the most of anybody. But to me, it's still not enough. If you're going to bother to make the ascending octave jump in the trombones sound nearly fortissimo, why not go all the way and add percussion as well? See, I actually view this as being THE MAIN CLIMAX of the entire symphony. I would add a pair of simultaneous tam-tam/cymbal smashes as well - just like the end of the 8th symphony. Sometime later, I'll give actual timing numbers, so those of you who are interested can see just where I mean. But for the mean time, S/M do this passage the best of anybody, and that's saying something - it's important. Why? Because, this is THE love concurs all moment that the entire symphony is really about. I'm convinced that Mahler would have become a teenager just one last time, and made this passage loud, not soft.

F. At the very end, where the violins do their ascending slide up an entire 12th interval, S/M add a distant bass drum roll after a few seconds, just as the strings begin to softly die out. That's a nice added touch.

All in all, I still like the Carpenter version best. But there are moments that S/M come pretty close to getting just right. They at least recognize some of the "big picture" issues of the work.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 04:57:22 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Don

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Re: Random thoughts on S/M M10
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2008, 12:52:47 PM »
Thanks for the great summary, Barry. I have not heard the S/M version yet. A couple of comments:

F. At the very end, where the violins do their ascending slide up an entire 12th interval, S/M add a distant bass drum roll after a few seconds, just as the strings begin to softly die out. That's a nice added touch.

Sanderling, in his 1979 recording of Cooke II, adds a distant echo in the brass which is a similar effect. Very nice.

C. I think that the start of the fifth movement is messed up. First off, while Mahler only drafted this in short score, he does indicate that the drum should be a bass drum (grosse trommel), and not a military side drum. When Mahler and Alma stuck there heads out the window of their N.Y. apartment to watch the funereal services for the dead fireman, they did not describe a noise that sounded like a gun shot. They made it clear that it was a single stroke on a bass drum...

I always heard it described as a muffled stroke of the drum. They were on an upper floor of the hotel, so it would have to have been a dull sound and somewhat muffled by the other buildings. A gun shot? Not at all. And yes, a single drum stroke between the movements is less clumsy.

I will probably comment more when I have some time. There is something about the 10th that just speaks to me like no other music I have ever heard. I tend to believe that Mahler, in this work as somewhat the same in the 9th, was working towards a totally different sound world than in the earlier symphonies. No more cowbells, klezmer bands, folk instruments, etc, but a more restrained, economical yet sill expressively colorful orchestration.

I still lean towards Cooke II-III with some modifications, such as the single drum stroke, a bit of added percussion in the climaxes and the ending as Sanderling does. Any completion of an unfinished work is by definition a compromise and educated guess work. Thus I welcome any new version of the work that offers alternatives and insights into this masterpiece. It can never be as Mahler wanted, but what a joy it is to listen to the attempts!
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Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Random thoughts on S/M M10
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2008, 02:34:02 PM »
Good comments; and yes, I like Sanderling's suped-up Cooke version. Since you bring up the sound of a muffled drum, I guess I wouldn't mind them using a military side drum, IF they muffled much more with a heavy towel, or some such thing. But I don't hear any attempt to make it sound like something that's muffled. They're definitely of the gun shot variety, which I think is just wrong. It might have sounded like a gun shot, if Gustav and Alma had been standing right next to the drummer.

Barry

Offline John Kim

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Re: Random thoughts on S/M M10
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2008, 05:09:41 PM »
All in all, I still like the Carpenter version best. But there are moments that S/M come pretty close to getting just right. They at least recognize some of the "big picture" issues of the work.
Ditto here. I like the Carpenter version best. At best, Carpenter threw everything into his score that could be thrown, and it's up to the listener what should be filtered in and what should be filtered out. OTOH, when I listen to the Cooke version it just doesn't trigger my imagination because there isn't much in the score other than the basic skeleton. I think S/M have achieved something that stands between the two versions. It is less sophisticated but meatier than Mazzetti's edition and this kind of quality is, IMO, closer to what Mahler might have done eventually.

Anyway, I love the playing and sound of the Sieghart/ASO/Exton very much as I do the Litton/DSO/Delos Carpenter recording. These are the two recordings of Mahler Tenth I can live with.

One point: I agree that the final climax in V. should be the major climax of the entire symphony. Like Barry I regret that most conductors miss this point. Sanderling was terrific in this regard.

John,

Offline Leo K

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Re: Random thoughts on S/M M10
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2008, 10:46:38 PM »
Quote
But to me, it's still not enough. If you're going to bother to make the ascending octave jump in the trombones sound nearly fortissimo, why not go all the way and add percussion as well? See, I actually view this as being THE MAIN CLIMAX of the entire symphony. I would add a pair of simultaneous tam-tam/cymbal smashes as well - just like the end of the 8th symphony. Sometime later, I'll give actual timing numbers, so those of you who are interested can see just where I mean. But for the mean time, S/M do this passage the best of anybody, and that's saying something - it's important. Why? Because, this is THE love concurs all moment that the entire symphony is really about. I'm convinced that Mahler would have become a teenager just one last time, and made this passage loud, not soft.


Thanks Barry for your thoughts...I'm still formulating mine on this recording...

This is just the kind of talk I'd like said at my memorial service   :)

--Todd

Offline Don

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Re: Random thoughts on S/M M10
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2008, 02:03:49 AM »
Digging up this older thread. I am listening to the live VSO recording of the premiere, so this does not pertain to the Arnhem recording which I understand may be a bit different.

I agree Barry the extra percussion in the Adagio sounds overdone. The only thing it does is to make the shrieking trumpet sound more like an air-raid siren.. foreboding the wars to come.

Purgatorio is fine as is and I see no need to change it from previous versions.

First scherzo is ok, just some added percussion and orchestration.

The second scherzo in their hands is even more disjointed and episodic than the other versions. This is a problematic piece as it is and their over busy orchestration and tempi flexing makes it even more so. Maybe it was the performance, but I felt more than ever the movement was going to grind to a sputtering halt with everyone looking around as if to say "where are we...what are we doing?"

5th movement is a bit too slow. At least in the VPO performance, the drums sound acceptably muffled, maybe it was due to  the poor recording. Barry is correct, the strings and harp smack of Mazzetti's versions, neither of which I really like.

The big expressionistic climax of the 5th movement (reprise of the one in the first) is an unmitigated mess. What is with the long silent pause?? Does nothing for me. Outside of that, the rest of the movement is done very well, actually Samale/Mazzucca and Siegart are quite effective here. Good flow, good orchestration, not over done. The only exception, is the tremolo strings which announce the climax just before the end, a little too "Hollywood" for me.  I also agree with Barry that the emphasis of this climactic episode is welcome and fitting.

The timpani echo after the big sweep of the strings near the very end is good, I like Sanderling's emphasis of the brass echo better.

I have heard this recording 3 times now, so I am not an expert on it for sure,  but at this juncture I do not think it will displace the Cooke or even Carpenter versions of the work. But as I said in a previous response, what fun it is to hear all the ideas that this unfinished masterpiece inspires.
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Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Random thoughts on S/M M10
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2008, 04:26:51 AM »
Very astute comments, Don. I don't disagree with a thing that you said, so I can't elaborate or embellish. Thanks for contributing.

Barry
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 04:28:33 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Don

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Re: Random thoughts on S/M M10
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2008, 12:37:55 AM »
Listening again, I think the First Scherzo is the best part of their version. The "souped up" orchestration is growing on me. Good driving performance, but some real scrappy playing.

I still think the second Scherzo is a disaster in this version. The already episodic music is made even more inorganic. I'll stick with Cooke III here.
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Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Random thoughts on S/M M10
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2008, 04:43:47 AM »
Again, I agree with you. I'd really like to have a more detailed conversation with you regarding Mahler 10 sometime. Right now just isn't a good time for me to spend hours on the keyboard. The right moment will pop up for both of us.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 05:39:09 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline John Kim

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Re: Random thoughts on S/M M10
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2008, 05:13:50 AM »
Listening again, I think the First Scherzo is the best part of their version. The "souped up" orchestration is growing on me. Good driving performance, but some real scrappy playing.

I still think the second Scherzo is a disaster in this version. The already episodic music is made even more inorganic. I'll stick with Cooke III here.
The second Scherzo is already episodic? ???

Well... of all the five movts I like this ones best!! I think this is the most cogent, complete (it sounds 'complete' to my ears) and original writing in the symphony. Sure, its main theme is borrowed from DLVDE but it certainly doesn't sound episodic. I like it regardless of the edition - Cooke, Wheeler, Carpenter, etc.

John,

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Random thoughts on S/M M10
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2008, 05:46:28 AM »
Generally, I agree with you, John. But as the movement progresses, it does become a bit less convincing; mainly because it does become a bit more disjointed. I like the fact that S/M make more out the expression outbursts towards the end of Scherzo II, than pretty much anyone else. But they also make the tempo slower than usual, and make the soft bits REALLY soft. That sort of adds to feeling of those outbursts happening for no real, organic reason.

Personally, I think that Scherzo II could use a male vocalist (I would prefer a baritone) for the first  half of it. The text could be something from your average bank statement or Visa bill, I suppose. Better yet, just make it wordless, and pretend that Bachianas Brasilieras #5 is having a bad nightmare. That could be fun.

Offline John Kim

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Re: Random thoughts on S/M M10
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2008, 05:53:59 AM »
Generally, I agree with you, John. But as the movement progresses, it does become a bit less convincing; mainly because it does become a bit more disjointed. I like the fact that S/M make more out the expression outbursts towards the end of Scherzo II, than pretty much anyone else. But they also make the tempo slower than usual, and make the soft bits REALLY soft. That sort of adds to feeling of those outbursts happening for no real, organic reason.
But Barry, didn't Carpenter also do the same sort of thing? If you listen to Litton/DSO/Delos recording you'll find these passages in Scherzo II. even more exaggerated in tempo and dynamics, more so than in the S/M version. But I really LOVE such a treatment and this is one reason why I am so delighted with both Carpenter and S/M editions. Nothing wrong with exaggerations in Mahler and this movt. sounds just fine to me with or without them.

My 2 cent worth of thought and how I feel about the M10th.

John,

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Random thoughts on S/M M10
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2008, 03:50:10 PM »
Agreed, but after hearing both S/M recordings with Sieghart, it appears that S/M are asking that the tempo be slower than normal as well; especially towards the end of the movement. Perhap that was Sieghart's choice, but the result is the same either way. I remember it sounding more unified on the Carpenter version. I know that back-half of Scherzo II bugs David as well. The first scherzo is more my bugga-boo.

Barry

 

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