Author Topic: Rattle's M2...Falling in love.  (Read 12803 times)

Offline Leo K

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Rattle's M2...Falling in love.
« on: March 30, 2007, 04:19:26 PM »
During spring break I found myself reaching for Rattle's Birmingham M2 for my walks along the dry Rilito River here in Tucson.  This recording didn't make an impression at first really...but now it is becoming a great M2 for me, almost my top pick.  It's the Andante that reels me in.  As I'm looking through my M2 collection I start to remember the gorgeous sound of Rattle's M2 Andante...(it is like remembering a loved one, which is pretty much what Mahler's original program notes for this movement suggest) and I am hooked again.  I really get carried away by the phrasing of the cellos.

The 1st movement is daring and quite exciting for it's twists and turns...although I hear Rattle has since changed his concept for this movement since his studio recording...and I love the percussion in the 3rd Movement (as well as the golden four trumpet chorale).  Janet Baker's voice is perfect for this Symphony...she is quite sophisticated and subtle...bravo.  The orchestra and choir are transparent and uplifting at the end of the Finale.  The Birmingham Symphony is simply inspired.

The interpetation overall seems loose and sprawling...like a wandering hike.  The performance gets better as it progresses.  It is well thought out, but it feels spontanious, at least in my view. 

A friend hooked me up with some live broadcasts of Rattle M2's (a Vienna/99 and a Berlin/06).  Looking forward to these! 

My other top M2's include Kaplan's two accounts, Klemperer's Arctic slow account from 1973, and Scherchen's VSO account. 

 

 
« Last Edit: March 30, 2007, 07:59:21 PM by Leo K »

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Rattle's M2...Falling in love.
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2007, 05:00:05 AM »
Since the newly remastered version has come out, this recording has definitely moved up a bit in my estimation. For one thing, the organ - which sounded awful on the original version - sounds much more believable now. In his review of Rattle's M2 for High Fidelity magazine (or maybe it was Stereo Review, I don't remember), Dave Hurwitz described the organ as sounding like a Maytag - more an appliance than a musical sounding instrument. I'm afraid I completely agreed with him on that point. Then there are two other complaints that I still have. In the first movement, I still don't like the way that Rattle exaggerates Mahler's marking to speed up during those seven ascending diatonic notes in the low strings, by starting out waaay too slow with that upward flourish. It's not such a problem near the beginning of the symphony, but it sounds quite lame after the main climax of the first movement. It sort of demasculates what just happened, if that makes any sense. I also don't like the almost ridiculously slow run that Rattle conducts to conclude the first movement. Combined with the way he balances the chording, it sounds very labored and strange to me. My other complaint is with, of course, the tam-tam playing. Because they still insist on useing those awful sounding Paiste tam-tams in England (while the rest of the world pretty much uses Wuhans), the dynamics come out inconsistant. Sometimes the tam-tam is way over balanced. At other times, even when it should be louder, you hardly hear the tam-tam at all. As a percussionist, that does bother me. But more to the point, it undermines some climaxes, while burying the balances in other ones. Beyond these somewhat minor complaints, I feel that this is a pretty good M2. I agree that his second movement is particularly good.

Rattle's scherzo isn't bad either, but I really like the scherzo on Chailly's M2. Unfortunately, the rest of it just isn't up to Chailly's usual high standards. The scherzo is also excellent on the new Fischer/BFO one, which is now my overall favorite M2 of any. He does it very much like the way Klemperer does it on his live BRSO one (also with Janet Baker!!):  kind of slow and craggy. My least favorite scherzo is probably Boulez/VPO. He skates over it so quickly, that it hardly makes a dent along the way. I like the andante to be slightly faster than usual, and the scherzo to be somewhat on the slow side of the equation; like Klemperer (but with strong climaxes!). That's just my preference.


Offline Leo K

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Re: Rattle's M2...Falling in love.
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2007, 05:55:15 AM »
Thanks for your observations...it helps to get another view from an actual instrumentalist on the detail of these performances.

I am tempted to pick up the Chailly M2 from the used store.  I've heard such mixed reviews but I might give it a try since it's so cheap at the store here.  I've heard it's quite lyrical and slower.  The best slow performance I've ever come across (besides the late Klemp) is Scherchen, who of course is all over the map, but his reading is very exciting.

In many ways I'm still developing my critera of what I like to hear in the M2.  I know I like slow, lyrical and dramatic readings, but on the other hand I have been enchanted by Kaplan's two accounts, which are almost like Karajan's style.
 

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Rattle's M2...Falling in love.
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2007, 07:05:28 AM »
Yeah, I think Kaplan's earlier LSO M2 is quite good, and that his VPO one is rather under-appreciated. It doesn't help that he has a relatively lame mezzo on his VPO one. Scherchen's commercial M2 is interesting in sort of a Franz Lisztian way, but the ending of the symphony isn't all that joyous, I don't think. Still, it's interesting.

If the Chailly is cheap, you might give it a spin. I'd be interested to get your input on it. I think it was better than what many folks thought of it. His ending was balanced in sort of a neat way, I thought. Chailly's biggest fault is that he let's the long sections that are both soft and slow, drag too much.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 03:55:40 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Leo K

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Re: Rattle's M2...Falling in love.
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2007, 03:59:47 AM »
I just picked up the Chailly M2.  I am looking forward to giving it a try.

I like your description of Scherchen's M2 as "Lisztian"...the M2 in Scherchen's hands really is "tone poem-like".  The ending is more meditative than joyous to my ears...definitely not as uplifting compared to others.

Offline Leo K

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Re: Rattle's M2...Falling in love.
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2007, 07:01:54 AM »
I just want to chime in before turning in for the night to praise the Chailly M2.  It was WAY better than I expected.  It goes straight on top my small stack of favorite modern M2's...next to Kaplan...and I think I may like it even better than the Rattle.  But, this is a honeymoon period, and I'll need some more listens.  I'll write more in detail later after another listen or to, but briefly here are my impressions:

--I like how the 1st movement is somewhat underplayed, not giving everything away at the start...it also flows more naturally into the Andante, which almost sounds like a "Part II" of the first movement.  Instrumental detail wonderful.

--Highlights are the Scherzo, Urlicht and Finale (especially the end). 

--This is not an epic 2nd...it feels more like a Resurrection for one individual rather than all of humanity.  The whole performance is rather subtle and refined, not at all ragged and daring.  Surprisingly, I really enjoyed this quality.  Chailly doesn't emphasize "modernity" here at all, it's a romantic reading.  Again, I was suprised I liked this. 

--Great sounding recording...good depth in the sound picture.

More later!!





« Last Edit: April 01, 2007, 07:06:29 AM by Leo K »

Wunderhorn

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Re: Rattle's M2...Falling in love.
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2007, 07:26:57 AM »
I need to give this recording a try!  ::)

I have heard Klemperer/N.Ph. '62,  Chailly/RCO, Slatkin/Atlanta SO, Abravanel/Utah, Bernstein/NYP/DG, Boulez/Wiener, Bertini/NDRSO

I liked them all except the Abravanel and the last movement of Chailly's. I still need to hear Fischer, Levi and Rattle plus maybe Mehta/Wiener '75.

How is the Rattle compaired to the Slatkin?

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Rattle's M2...Falling in love.
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2007, 07:31:03 AM »
Leo,

Just based on your preferences, and you're tolerance for a very wide range of interpretations (and you've earned my respect in tossing that word about), I had a hunch that you'd like the Chailly M2. I think it's somewhat better than most folks thought.

B.

Offline Leo K

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Re: Rattle's M2...Falling in love.
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2007, 04:08:43 PM »
Thanks agan for this recommendation.  It sounded just as good the next morning at work on the crappy computer hardrive in the office!!!  I am really blown away by the orchestral playing, especially the winds.  This recording sounds great in the car...the car seems to shake during the fortissimos!!  At home I just have a little boombox, so my car has a better stereo.

Again, I like how Chailly slowly builds this piece...like not expending all his energy on the 1st movement.  With each movement a new plateau is reached, and I feel the music sounds more impressive with each movement.  The Urlicht is the best sung for my taste...Petra Lang really is feeling the words and music it seems.  Chailly is good with details in the score, and he doesn't show them off either...they're there whenever you want to zoom in on the orchestration (Horenstein is known for this too).  I think thats what strikes me the most at this time besides his overall concerpt for the work.  He is careful with the score, and the result is a refined reading, sophisicated or subtle.  I think it's time to revist his M9, which didn't hit me right away.  I think I'm starting to hear Chailly's Mahler differently.  I've always loved his M3 though.  Wow.

It's awesome to have great sound and a great conception on the same recording.








Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Rattle's M2...Falling in love.
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2007, 03:30:53 AM »
Interesting observations. I feel that Chailly makes the scherzo (M2) more "central" to the overall structure, and/or narrative of the symphony. It just seems to play more of a key role than usual. I also thought that the polyphony between the two sets of timpani was more clearly delineated than usual as well.

Barry
« Last Edit: April 03, 2007, 03:39:01 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Leo K

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Re: Rattle's M2...Falling in love.
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2007, 04:16:26 PM »
Interesting observations. I feel that Chailly makes the scherzo (M2) more "central" to the overall structure, and/or narrative of the symphony. It just seems to play more of a key role than usual. I also thought that the polyphony between the two sets of timpani was more clearly delineated than usual as well.

Barry

Wow...that is a real interesting point regarding the importance of the scherzo...now that I'm feeling much better (I had a bad cold the last few days) I'm going to give it another spin tonight and listen for this...I feel you are correct in this observation.  By the way, I love what Chailly does with the trumpet chorale, which is at a faster pace, but still works because of how the surrounding tempos are executed.


Offline chalkpie

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Re: Rattle's M2...Falling in love.
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2010, 04:11:53 AM »
I just want to chime in before turning in for the night to praise the Chailly M2.  It was WAY better than I expected.  It goes straight on top my small stack of favorite modern M2's...next to Kaplan...and I think I may like it even better than the Rattle.  But, this is a honeymoon period, and I'll need some more listens.  I'll write more in detail later after another listen or to, but briefly here are my impressions:

--I like how the 1st movement is somewhat underplayed, not giving everything away at the start...it also flows more naturally into the Andante, which almost sounds like a "Part II" of the first movement.  Instrumental detail wonderful.

--Highlights are the Scherzo, Urlicht and Finale (especially the end). 

--This is not an epic 2nd...it feels more like a Resurrection for one individual rather than all of humanity.  The whole performance is rather subtle and refined, not at all ragged and daring.  Surprisingly, I really enjoyed this quality.  Chailly doesn't emphasize "modernity" here at all, it's a romantic reading.  Again, I was suprised I liked this. 

--Great sounding recording...good depth in the sound picture.

More later!!


That is very well stated! Some folks on Clamazon hammered this recording, but I never really got why? It is a different take for sure on M2, but it has a bunch of validity. And yes, the Ulricht is one my fav's on disc. The only Chailly I don't truly love is his M7, which, well bores me - and I am an M7 nutcase.

Offline chalkpie

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Re: Rattle's M2...Falling in love.
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2010, 04:13:40 AM »
  I think it's time to revist his M9, which didn't hit me right away.  I think I'm starting to hear Chailly's Mahler differently.  I've always loved his M3 though.  Wow.

It's awesome to have great sound and a great conception on the same recording.


Not sure if you ever revisted Chailly's M9, but for my $$ it is THE BEST!!!! A true desert island recording if there is such a thing.

Offline Leo K

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Re: Rattle's M2...Falling in love.
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2010, 06:12:39 AM »
  I think it's time to revist his M9, which didn't hit me right away.  I think I'm starting to hear Chailly's Mahler differently.  I've always loved his M3 though.  Wow.

It's awesome to have great sound and a great conception on the same recording.


Not sure if you ever revisted Chailly's M9, but for my $$ it is THE BEST!!!! A true desert island recording if there is such a thing.

Chailly's M9 is indeed very fine, and very subtle, but with plenty of power on reserve, as John has said in the past. The SACD is very well recorded too!

I'm glad we see eye to eye on Chailly's M2 as well!!!

--Todd

Offline mahler09

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Re: Rattle's M2...Falling in love.
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2010, 04:56:20 PM »
I'm giving a listen to the Chailly M2 right now after reading this thread again.  It's been on the back burner for a bit and I forgot how much I like this recording.

 

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