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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: Toblacher on September 09, 2010, 05:21:14 PM
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12 September 1910, world premier of the Mahler 8 in Munich.
Play a recording at the exact same time? In the Eastern time
zone of the US that would 2:00pm if the Munich premier started
at 8:00pm. Who's with me?
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Sounds like a good idea. It indeed was an historic occasion. I think I'll select and play a recording of that same work that was an historic occasion in itself: The Horenstein M8 of 1959 that was performed in Albert Hall, London.
Wade
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I'll be listening again to the wonderfully amazing Stockholm performance (Sakari Oramo) from earlier this year from a radio recording. Not that it were really audiophile but it is very musical. and it works very well sonically in the car, where I am awfully often, and on mp3 as well, which ich while gardening....
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...if the Munich premier started at 8:00pm.
From La Grange's Gustav Mahler, volume 4, page 966 (concerning the Munich première of M8):
"The same critic went on to describe the audience in the hall, just before Mahler appeared on stage at 7:45 sharp."
The critic goes on to indicate that Mahler climbed onto the rostrum, acknowledged the ovation, asked the three choruses to stand, and gave the downbeat without significant delay.
I'll likely cue up the Bernstein/LSO version, my introduction to the work and to Mahler himself.
James
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Nice - I was gonna post this tonight - I just read this in the Gielen boxset notes.
100 years! Wow!
I'm gonna try to hit it twice if I can on Sunday
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I'll likely cue up the Bernstein/LSO version, my introduction to the work and to Mahler himself.
A good choice, James, and like you, this was also my first introduction to M8. The Horenstein performance I plan to listen to was likely the first-ever stereo recording of the work, commercial or non-commercial. Stokowski's 1950 recording of the complete work is likely the first. Stoki introduced the work to America in 1916 when he performed it at the Academy of Music in Philly.
Wade
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"The same critic went on to describe the audience in the hall, just before Mahler appeared on stage at 7:45 sharp."
So the actual downbeat was around 7:50 -> not 8:00 if I'm interpreting this correctly?
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So the actual downbeat was around 7:50 -> not 8:00 if I'm interpreting this correctly?
Chalkpie,
Yes, that's correct, based on my reading of the entire passage. The Neues Wiener Tagblatt reported that Mahler was applauded for several minutes and had to bow a number of times before starting to conduct. Also, critic Julius Korngold reported the following two details:
1) The overall performance lasted 85 minutes.
2) There was a break of "some five minutes" between the two movements during which time "Mahler remained leaning on his desk."
According to Der Vaterland, the performance of Part I lasted from 7:50 until 8:15. There was a five-minute interval, after which Part II began, and the performance ended at 9:15.
If we're going to do this, by God, we've got to do it right!
James
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Thanks for the info James!
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I don't think I can wait until 7:45 for a first performance! I need my M8 fix earlier, maybe in the afternoon, when people had their after-dinner sleep so they won't feel so bothered by wall of sound.
Zinman's M8 will be one of recordings I'll play because of the incredible organ presence. The second will be Solti's, who's M8 I heard the first time almost 20 years ago as a 10 year old on my father's LPs.
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Good idea...except that I'll do this earlier in the day when my family is at church. I'll have my own version of church, which will be the Inbal/Tokyo MSO M8 -- which has become my unequivocal favorite M8. Mahler always gets me much closer to God than any standard religious practice.
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I will play Ozawa/BSO/Philips recording.
John,
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I will be celebrating my 40th birthday on Sept.12!
I'm not sure what recordings I will listen to, perhaps the MTT and the Witt!
--Todd
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Not sure which version I'll play, either, but 7:50 pm Munich time would be 10:45 am Pacific time, which is just a little too early for me on a Sunday morning (especially for something like the M8!), so it'll be a bit later in the day.....
And happy birthday, Todd!
Russell
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I will play Ozawa/BSO/Philips recording.
John,
This one is near the top of all M8ths.
Ozawa's Part II. may be the best of the lot; it has the femininity, mysticism, fantasy, and the ecstatic and glorious ending, all of which Mahler intended in his score.
Listening to the recording in a long time today confirmed this impression that had on me the first time I heard it.
John,
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I'll be sending the sympathetic vibrations from here, I think the recent Elder/Hallé 2010 broadcast will do nicely.
7:50 it is then; in addition to being a really good performance, the timings coincide (given a 5 minute respite in the lee) to end at 9:15 sharp!
It'll be like some Scriabinesque attempt to morph reality by a concerted sonic event... I mean, do you think that people will feel the Mahler vibe because of a bunch of folks playing such an epic work through, from so many locations?
Play it loud as you dare, then ;D
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I like the idea of a Scriabinesque event, might just play The Poem of Fire before hand since Scriabin completed it in 1910, think i'll play the Elgar Violin Concerto since it was premiered November 10th 1910, then at just before 2pm Mahler's 8th will begin. If i had a recording of Stravinsky's Firebird i would have played that aswell. Im looking forward to sunday morning/afternoon then the NFL in the evening my time, C'mon Oakland ;D
I have 4 Mahler 8's Solti, Tennstedt, Kubelik and Gielen, my fave of the 4 would be the Tennstedt but i havent listened to the Solti in awhile.
"Try to imagine the whole universe beginning to ring and resound. There are no longer human voices, but planets and suns revolving."
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I'm gonna hit Chailly's M8 tomorrow
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I'm going to listen to M8, although I haven't quite decided which recording yet. Although, interestingly enough, I ran into Benjamin Zander today.
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Although, interestingly enough, I ran into Benjamin Zander today.
Did you ask him when he's going to record M8?
James
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I'm going to listen to M8, although I haven't quite decided which recording yet. Although, interestingly enough, I ran into Benjamin Zander today.
Really?! Where?
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In the hall of New England Conservatory today. No, I didn't get to ask about M8 but if I see him again that will be a priority. I did mention briefly that I had his recordings and he was very nice.
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Does anybody know the exact number of performers on stage at this premiere?
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12 September 1910, world premier of the Mahler 8 in Munich.
Play a recording at the exact same time? In the Eastern time
zone of the US that would 2:00pm if the Munich premier started
at 8:00pm. Who's with me?
Just listening to the live WDR 3 broadcast of the centennary performance from Duisburg with huge forces under Maazel:
"Sinfonie der Tausend" live aus der Kraftzentrale Duisburg
Gustav Mahler Sinfonie Nr. 8 Es-dur
Magna Peccatrix: Manuela Uhl
Una Poenitentium: Nancy Gustafson
Mater Gloriosa: Anna Virovlansky
Samaritana: Lioba Braun Mulier
Maria Aegyptiaca: Renιe Morloc
Doctor Marianus: Thomas Studebaker
Pater Exstaticus: Dimitri Vargin
Pater Profundis: Jan-Hendrik Rootering
Opernchφre und Philharmonische Chφre aus Essen, Dortmund, Gelsenkirchen,
Bochum, Duisburg, Hamm, Dόsseldorf, Siegen, Bielefeld
Projektchor "Sinfonie der Tausend"
Kinder- und Jugendchφre aus Essen, Dortmund, Duisburg, Oberhausen,
Velbert-Langenberg sowie Riga
Choreinstudierung: Alexander Eberle
Ruhrgebietsorchester, bestehend aus Mitgliedern der Duisburger Philharmoniker, Borchumer Symphoniker, Essener Philharmoniker, Dortmunder Philharmoniker, Neue Philharmonie Westfalen, Philharmonisches Orchester Hagen
Musikalische Gesamtleitung: Lorin Maazel
άbertragung aus der Kraftzentrale im Landschaftspark Duisburg-Nord
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Does anybody know the exact number of performers on stage at this premiere?
The exact number is probably lost to history but, again according to La Grange, the two SATB choirs comprised a total of 500, with 350 in the children's choir. That's 850. Add to that a huge orchestra, eight vocal soloists, and the auxiliary brass group, and you end up with something very close to the 1,000 promised by Emil Gutmann.
It's often done today with only 600–700 performers. I heard a live Solti/Chicago performance in 1971 just before they went to Vienna to record it, and I think he used only about 550, a limit imposed by the size of the stage in the Civic Opera House.
It's almost time!
James
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It's approaching 10:50 am on the west coast, and I'm about to cue up the 'live' Maazel/NYP recording in glorious 96/24 on my laptop! Unfortunately I have to listen on headphones and I won't likely be able to finish it, as I've got a luncheon engagement. I'll be playing another M8 tonight on the big system.
Russell
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Thanks Russell for the B-day wishes!
By the way...I listened to the Witt M8 this morning, and was totally blown out of my chair. This is still in my top three of M8, perhaps the very tippy top of that list. Sonically it is still superior to most recordings of this work.
--Todd
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I don't own the Witt but I am perfectly happy with Ozawa, Bertini, Bernstein, and Abbado.
John,
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I did Gielen instead of Chailly (I was too lazy to go to the car to grab it + I haven't heard the Gielen in a while).
I got back from the store late so I started around 3:15 Eastern. I'll be honest - I was imagining the man himself conducting this, and thinking about what he must have been "thinking" about during this virgin flight (besides the music of course), and it was a special experience. MY 5-year old daughter jumped on my lap for about the last 10 minutes or so of the work, and I was tearing up like a school girl. What a special moment - albeit a bit bittersweet for a few reasons, but I'm very glad I did this. It's a magical work that gets better each time I hear it.
The Gielen recording is good, but not my favorite. Good soloists, solid playing, great choirs. It seems a bit by the "book", and lacks a bit of spark like Lenny, Chailly, and Boulez to mu ears, but a good recording nonetheless. Giele4n does quite well with the intro to part II - a nicely performed section that is quite mysterious sounding.
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I think we think alike about the Gielen, part 2 is very good, although i found the last 2 sections not quite hitting the highs. I listened to the Solti which i hadnt listened to in awhile which i enjoyed but its not my favourite 8th.
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Does anybody know the exact number of performers on stage at this premiere?
As far as I know there were 850 in the choirs, 170 in the ochestra, 8 vocal solists, 1 organ player, and Mahler, i.e. 1030 persons on stage.
BTW, I was listening the the LPO/Tennstedt DVD starting at 19:50 CET and finishing at 21:17. This was the one with the tempi closest to Mahler himself that I had access to.
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On Sunday I didn't find the time to listen to M8, but on Monday I played the Chailly on DVD-Audio. I still consider this to be a very good M8, it ranks among my top choices. I love the Concertgebouw recording, especially the way you can really hear Mater Gloriosa from outside the hall; it sounds exactly as it does when you're actually there. Good to great voices, very good orchestral playing. I reckon I should take the chance to compare this to some others now: I'm still not that sure of the Wit M8, and I should revisit the Tilson Thomas and the Nagano. And I got the Zinman immediately after its release, but have heard it only once, so I guess I should add that to the playlist. In the late 90s, I LOVED the Abbado, but I haven't heard it in some years now, so that's added. And I'm curious about the Mitropoulos, which I heard probably just twice, some years ago. Well, there goes the weekend... ;)
Freddy
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Time has kinda been an issue this week. But I played the 1st movement to Witt's rendition. For whatever reason, this is usually one of my least favorite movement in Mahler, except for that incredible ending. However, Witt really is winning me over to it. There's clarity, but everything's exciting without being overblown. I want to get to his 2nd movement tonight, but I'm kinda in M9 mood.
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On Sunday I didn't find the time to listen to M8, but on Monday I played the Chailly on DVD-Audio. I still consider this to be a very good M8, it ranks among my top choices. I love the Concertgebouw recording, especially the way you can really hear Mater Gloriosa from outside the hall; it sounds exactly as it does when you're actually there. Good to great voices, very good orchestral playing. I reckon I should take the chance to compare this to some others now: I'm still not that sure of the Wit M8, and I should revisit the Tilson Thomas and the Nagano. And I got the Zinman immediately after its release, but have heard it only once, so I guess I should add that to the playlist. In the late 90s, I LOVED the Abbado, but I haven't heard it in some years now, so that's added. And I'm curious about the Mitropoulos, which I heard probably just twice, some years ago. Well, there goes the weekend... ;)
Freddy
I listened to Chailly M8 today as a matter of fact. It's my favorite version that I own, and I agree with the points you made. Anybody that says Chailly is "flat" or "neutral" and can still say that after hearing that incredible ending, well they lose all credibility with me or we hear things VERY differently. The sonics hold up quite well and add such power and presence to this recording. Yes, I am a Chaillly Mahler fanboy ;D
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I will shortly be departing on a trip to Europe that will include a stop in Munich. I checked the final volume of de la Grange's Mahler biography to see if the Munich Exhibition Hall in which Mahler premiered his 8th Symphony still exists. Even in the chapter describing the premiere, plus the appendix that outlines for Mahler pilgrims what places of interest still exist that were part of Mahler's life are both unclear on this. My assumption is that the Munich Exhibition Hall where the Eighth was premiered no longer exists, and was apparently bombed during the war. Am I correct on this?
Wade
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Wade,
The Neue Musik-Festhalle still exists, but its function has changed. It's now a part of the Deutsches Museum Verkehrszentrum and, as such, is filled with planes, trains, and automobiles—a transportation museum and a paean to the industrial revolution.
http://www.deutsches-museum.de/en/verkehrszentrum/information/
http://entartetemusik.blogspot.com/2010/09/veni-creator-spiritus.html
Have a good trip!
James
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Wade,
The Neue Musik-Festhalle still exists, but its function has changed. It's now a part of the Deutsches Museum Verkehrszentrum and, as such, is filled with planes, trains, and automobiles—a transportation museum and a paean to the industrial revolution.
http://www.deutsches-museum.de/en/verkehrszentrum/information/
http://entartetemusik.blogspot.com/2010/09/veni-creator-spiritus.html
Have a good trip!
James
Thanks, James! The quip at the second link about removing the cars, trains, and planes would indeed have been both quite a logistical and financial challenge to attempt to stage a recreation of the M8 premiere in the same hall. Not to mention that the performing stage and organ that were there at the time of the premiere are no longer there. Likely the financial challenge would even have been too much for Mahler philanthropist Gilbert Kaplan to undertake, had he wanted to. If the hall is fairly close to where we're staying, and where the Oktoberfest festivities are located, maybe we'll get to that hall to see where the premiere took place.
Ironically, much of my professional career was in transportation for the military.
Wade