Author Topic: DH gives a glowing 9/9 to Zinman's new M3rd SACD  (Read 13617 times)

Offline John Kim

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DH gives a glowing 9/9 to Zinman's new M3rd SACD
« on: November 28, 2007, 05:33:38 PM »
David Zinman's Mahler cycle really hits its stride with this remarkable performance of the Third Symphony. It only has two small drawbacks worth mentioning. First, alto Birgit Remmert sounds pretty good in her big fourth-movement solo, but she's far less impressive during her brief contributions to the choral fifth movement. Perhaps this take came from another evening (the symphony was recorded during a series of live performances). Second, at the very end of the symphony, despite the very beautiful playing, the trumpets fail to ring out as Mahler's score directs. Better this glowing sonority than stridency, but there's no reason why we can't have the best of both worlds (Haitink's first recording with the Concertgebouw on Philips never has been surpassed in this respect).

Otherwise, this is pretty sensational. Zinman nails the first movement, from the creepy, gurgling sounds of the opening through a major-key march that has real brilliance and swing. There's not a trace of underplaying or that awful "Mahler lite" quality that sometimes afflicts today's performances (from Norrington to Abbado). The wild "mob" episode in the development section gives Bernstein (Sony) a very good run for his money, and the coda really rocks. The second movement offers particularly strong contrasts between slow and fast sections, making the music more dramatic than usual. In the scherzo Zinman takes the posthorn solos very slowly but varies the offstage perspective to create a fascinating interplay of texture between trumpet, horns, and strings. It's really special, and the same movement's coda never has been more colorfully shaped, with horns and trumpets tossing back their hunting fanfares in the spirit of the scherzo of Bruckner's Fourth Symphony.

As perviously noted, Remmert does well by her Nietzsche text in the fourth movement, less well in the fifth, but the latter features fine chorus-work and a vivid underpinning of bell sounds. Zinman's tempo for the finale (almost exactly 23 minutes) strikes me as ideal, not too fast but never dragging. The Tonhalle strings play very eloquently here, and the soft brass chorale before the final triumphant climax is truly luminous. In sum, this is a performance with a distinctive but idiomatic point of view that gives great satisfaction. The sonics in SACD multichannel format are good, but I still find that traditional stereo has the greatest impact, as it so often does. Mahler's Third is a tough work to hold together, but Zinman reveals himself here as a fearless Mahlerian who stands with the best.


--David Hurwitz



Still, to these ears this recording, as in Zinman's M2nd, sounds tamed and too cultivated compared to Bernstein, Kubelik, Horentsein, and Abbado (Vienna, not Berlin). The music calls for a wilder and bolder treatment, IMO.

John,

Offline barry guerrero

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D.H. gives 9/9 review to Zinman M3 (RCA)
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2007, 08:53:00 AM »
Dave Hurwitz @Classicstoday. com gave the Zinman Mahler #3 a 9/9 (performance/sound - out of a possible 10) review. It's clear that he really enjoyed it. Here goes:

David Zinman's Mahler cycle really hits its stride with this remarkable performance of the Third Symphony. It only has two small drawbacks worth mentioning. First, alto Birgit Remmert sounds pretty good in her big fourth-movement solo, but she's far less impressive during her brief contributions to the choral fifth movement. Perhaps this take came from another evening (the symphony was recorded during a series of live performances). Second, at the very end of the symphony, despite the very beautiful playing, the trumpets fail to ring out as Mahler's score directs. Better this glowing sonority than stridency, but there's no reason why we can't have the best of both worlds (Haitink's first recording with the Concertgebouw on Philips never has been surpassed in this respect).

Otherwise, this is pretty sensational. Zinman nails the first movement, from the creepy, gurgling sounds of the opening through a major-key march that has real brilliance and swing. There's not a trace of underplaying or that awful "Mahler lite" quality that sometimes afflicts today's performances (from Norrington to Abbado). The wild "mob" episode in the development section gives Bernstein (Sony) a very good run for his money, and the coda really rocks. The second movement offers particularly strong contrasts between slow and fast sections, making the music more dramatic than usual. In the scherzo Zinman takes the posthorn solos very slowly but varies the offstage perspective to create a fascinating interplay of texture between trumpet, horns, and strings. It's really special, and the same movement's coda never has been more colorfully shaped, with horns and trumpets tossing back their hunting fanfares in the spirit of the scherzo of Bruckner's Fourth Symphony.

As perviously noted, Remmert does well by her Nietzsche text in the fourth movement, less well in the fifth, but the latter features fine chorus-work and a vivid underpinning of bell sounds. Zinman's tempo for the finale (almost exactly 23 minutes) strikes me as ideal, not too fast but never dragging. The Tonhalle strings play very eloquently here, and the soft brass chorale before the final triumphant climax is truly luminous. In sum, this is a performance with a distinctive but idiomatic point of view that gives great satisfaction. The sonics in SACD multichannel format are good, but I still find that traditional stereo has the greatest impact, as it so often does. Mahler's Third is a tough work to hold together, but Zinman reveals himself here as a fearless Mahlerian who stands with the best.


Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DH gives a glowing 9/9 to Zinman's new M3rd SACD
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2007, 09:01:57 AM »
"The music calls for a wilder and bolder treatment, IMO".

John, I keep telling you - recording after recording - turn your stereo up! It's plenty wild if you allow it to be. Furthermore, the beauty and the wildness is in the details. Many of these more recent recordings need a fair amount of boost. Otherwise, they can sound too tame; or even dull.

Offline Leo K

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Re: DH gives a glowing 9/9 to Zinman's new M3rd SACD
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2007, 04:07:41 PM »
Out of the recordings John mentioned above (including the new Zinman), I feel the Abbado VPO M3 is the strongest, I got a hold of a used copy and was blown away at the beauty, mystery and power of this M3...full of "wildness", especially in the first movement.  I like the new Zinman M3 but it is not as spontanious as the Abbado, still the sound is very good.

--Leo

Offline sperlsco

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Re: DH gives a glowing 9/9 to Zinman's new M3rd SACD
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2007, 04:45:11 PM »
I merged the two similar topics on this subject. 

I'll admit that I have not listened to the M3 Abbado/VPO in a long while, but don't remember caring for it.  I distinctly remember not liking the slow finale.  Generally, I did not think very highly of any Mahler that Abbado did with the VPO (M2, M3, M4, M9).  IMO, he was a better match with the CSO early in his career (M2, M6, and M7, although not necessarily M1, M5). 

I am hoping that the new SACD of Lennie's M3 will spark me to tour my M3's, so that I'll be more "into" M3 the next time I listen to the Zinman one.  I just got a shipping notice from HMV.jp on the three Lennie SACD's (M3, M4, M7), so hopefully I'll get to listen to them in a week or so. 
Scott

Offline Leo K

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Re: DH gives a glowing 9/9 to Zinman's new M3rd SACD
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2007, 06:06:15 PM »
I look forward to your reviews Scott.

I resisted buying the Abbado VPO M3 for years, because the opinions I had read complained about certain aspects of sound, or the slowness of the finale.  But I finally found a decently priced used copy and discovered this M3 to be incredible, and it has a unique sound too (not an audiophile experience, but a pleasing recording full of great detail).  The first movement is the wildest and most confrontational I've ever heard!  It soars, it growls and swirls, and then the enchanted quieter moments are captured with presence and atmosphere in the interesting production (not to everyones taste obviously)...indeed it is one of my favorite Mahler recordings in my whole collection. 

--Leo

Offline John Kim

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Re: DH gives a glowing 9/9 to Zinman's new M3rd SACD
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2007, 07:08:07 PM »
I agree with Leo on the Abbado M3. I am still puzzled about what had happened at the very last note of I. As I have repeated pointed out, the last note of I. fades away so quickly in its volume and presence that I can only assume the DG engineers shut down their recording machine too early without waiting until it completely damped out. But other than this (very) small quibble I adore this recording very much. Along with the two Bernsteins, Horenstein, Haitink I., and possibly Levine this one ranks at the top in my book.

John,

Offline John Kim

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Re: DH gives a glowing 9/9 to Zinman's new M3rd SACD
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2007, 07:31:54 PM »
Oops! I forgot to include Kobayashi/CPO/Exton M3rd, the most beautiful and appropriately wild, extremley well executed and recorded version. So, here goes my list of great M3rds:

Bernstein/NYPO/Sony or DG
Haitink/RCO/Philips
Horenstein/LSO/Unicorn
Levine/CSO/RCA
Abbado/VPO/DG
Kobayashi/CPO/Exton

John,

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DH gives a glowing 9/9 to Zinman's new M3rd SACD
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2007, 07:52:25 AM »
Those all seem like great picks to me, John. But I just can't share your preference for Abbado's earlier Vienna version over his Berlin remake. The Berlin one may not have the super loud (french)horns, or the wildly exaggerated dynamic range of the VPO one, but it's much more taut and lively in the last three movements. For me, Abbado turns too pious and "Catholic" sounding in the final three movements in Vienna. In the scherzo of his Berlin remake (third movement), Abbado whips the climax of the centrally placed, loud interlude into quite a frenzy. I really like that. The balances are generally better too, allowing more percussion and woodwind detail to fully register. More of the complexities of the work come through (as in Zinman's rendition as well). On the most basic level, the BPO clearly have the better percussion department. I do like Jessye Norman a lot, but I just think that she was put to far better use on the under-rated Ozawa/BSO M3. Ozawa certainly has a far better climax to the big, long brass chorale in the final movement; with just outrageous amplitude pumped out by his trombones at the final cymbal crash (as opposed to just loud horns).

Offline Amphissa

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Re: DH gives a glowing 9/9 to Zinman's new M3rd SACD
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2007, 12:43:02 AM »
"Life without music is a mistake." Nietzsche

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DH gives a glowing 9/9 to Zinman's new M3rd SACD
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2007, 06:15:11 AM »
Same reply from me: turn it up! It's not lacking anything, in my book. I also don't like David Gutman as a Mahler reviewer in the least. Then again, that's just me.

He complains about the strings in the final bars of the sixth movement. They're simply playing tremelos - how loud do those need to be? It ain't Bruckner. Obviously, Zinman is intentionally holding the brass back in the final few bars. Mahler very clearly states: "not to be strident; but with a noble, saturated sound". At the symphony's concluding bars, the quality of sound is far more important than sheer amplitude. The moment for the brass to shine is clear back at the final cymbal crash. To me ears, that passage is excellent on the Zinman - superbly balanced between trombones, horns, and trumpets; all of whom are somewhat independent of each other. For me, the final few bars of the entire symphony is one of the big problems with Abbado/VPO: underplayed kettle drums, and somewhat strident trumpets - just the opposite of what Mahler asks for! Gutman should take the trouble to read what the composer wrote.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2007, 06:35:34 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline bluesbreaker

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Re: DH gives a glowing 9/9 to Zinman's new M3rd SACD
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2007, 02:43:59 AM »
For me, the final few bars of the entire symphony is one of the big problems with Abbado/VPO: underplayed kettle drums, and somewhat strident trumpets - just the opposite of what Mahler asks for! Gutman should take the trouble to read what the composer wrote.

To this day, I still think Abbado's VPO account sucks big time. BG's point above testifyes one of the reasons why I got so dissapointed when hearing this crap.
Under The Dark Side Of The Glass Moon

Offline John Kim

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Re: DH gives a glowing 9/9 to Zinman's new M3rd SACD
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2007, 04:09:09 AM »
To this day, I still think Abbado's VPO account sucks big time. BG's point above testifyes one of the reasons why I got so dissapointed when hearing this crap.
Give us a break. There are fans out there who still enjoy this recording; I've never called something I hate but others like 'crap'. :-\

John,

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: DH gives a glowing 9/9 to Zinman's new M3rd SACD
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2007, 08:14:44 AM »
.   .   and there are some moments in the Abbado/VPO M3 that are, indeed, exciting as all hell. The problem is that there are also plenty of moments where things just aren't up to snuff. It doesn't help that soft passages nearly disappear off the radar screen - a characteristic of very early digital recordings. I just think that Jessye Norman got put to better use on the Ozawa/BSO M3.

Offline bluesbreaker

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Re: DH gives a glowing 9/9 to Zinman's new M3rd SACD
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2007, 10:17:30 AM »
John,
Sorry that I used strong language here. Didn't mean it that way.
I may try it again in the future but I am not gonna pay 30 USD for the sake of it..........
Under The Dark Side Of The Glass Moon

 

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