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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: Wunderhorn on January 29, 2007, 02:46:51 AM
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I just bought the Chailly boxset, I couldn't help myself... ::) I think it had to do with my love of the 'beautiful' aspects of Mahler, and that Chailly is disputably the one who envisions this type best. The grotesque Mahler of Bernstein and Abbado fits me sometimes, but not always. It could be said that the 'folk' music of the Slavic, Bohemian, and Hebrew regions generated perhaps the most 'visceral' musical experience possible, and Mahler is its demigod. These characteristics don't necessarily need be treated harshly or expressionistically as some do. I think of Abbado current Berlin Live series, the 6th and 9th are key, though all are very well preformed. If he continues this series, I would consider getting that set as well. Chailly boxset is making me so excited I can barely contain myself. :o
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Great! Enjoy. I don't know, Chailly's M3 and M6 seem pretty big-boned and visceral to me - more so than many of Abbado's recorded performances. But hey, it's all in the mind, right? I think you made a really good choice, and you get a pretty darn good M10 in the Cooke version too. It's hard to top the Concertgebouw in Mahler; certainly for sheer consistantcy, if nothing else. They have excellent woodwinds, and a thoroughly modernized kitchen department (percussion).
I can't see there being another Abbado box, unless he re-makes the 8th in Luzern (Lucerne). He hasn't done a "DLvdE" yet either.
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There is something so sweet about the trumpet solo in the third movement of M3, reminds me of a comforting embrace, or a trumpet solo to sentimentally sing of how someone will be missed on earth after they leave. :'(
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Chailly's M3 is incredible. The outer movements are great, but he really takes those inner movements into the sublime. Actually, so does Boulez in his own way.
Congrats on the new set :)
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I had most of the Chailly Mahler in singles. Worthwhile hearing certainly, but over time I felt they didn't reach the heights of corresponding recordings I'd had for years, and some of those, years and years. Nothing too drastic in comparing. But enough found in phrasing, dynamics, and playing, that made me reach back for the old standbys.
Would I recommend the Chailly set? Yes, but primarily to new Mahler users, who so often are concerned with quality of sound. Regarding interpretation, later on they can decide if they want something rougher, and more adventurous.
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Would I recommend the Chailly set? Yes, but primarily to new Mahler users, who so often are concerned with quality of sound. Regarding interpretation, later on they can decide if they want something rougher, and more adventurous.
I agree with one main aspect of this. Although I consider Bernstein's DG set to be my favorite of all, I really cannot recommend it to a Mahler newbie. Lennie has his own way with Mahler in this late cycle, which I feel works much better if you already have a love of the symphonies. Chailly's set is more straightforward than Lennie's, and so it may work better for a Mahler newbie. Of course, I feel that Chailly's cycle can work for someone with any level of Mahleria. Actually, in terms of straightforward playing I think that the Bertini cycle might be my first recommendation to a Mahler newbie (over the Lennie/Sony one due to sound quality). OTOH, I like Chailly's cycle much better overall than the Bertini one. I rate the Chailly M3, M4, M5, M6, M8, M9, and M10 all as first tier favorites. Unfortunately, I find his M2 to be very mannered and dislike his way with M7.
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Would I recommend the Chailly set? Yes, but primarily to new Mahler users, who so often are concerned with quality of sound. Regarding interpretation, later on they can decide if they want something rougher, and more adventurous.
I agree with one main aspect of this. Although I consider Bernstein's DG set to be my favorite of all, I really cannot recommend it to a Mahler newbie. Lennie has his own way with Mahler in this late cycle, which I feel works much better if you already have a love of the symphonies. Chailly's set is more straightforward than Lennie's, and so it may work better for a Mahler newbie. Of course, I feel that Chailly's cycle can work for someone with any level of Mahleria. Actually, in terms of straightforward playing I think that the Bertini cycle might be my first recommendation to a Mahler newbie (over the Lennie/Sony one due to sound quality). OTOH, I like Chailly's cycle much better overall than the Bertini one. I rate the Chailly M3, M4, M5, M6, M8, M9, and M10 all as first tier favorites. Unfortunately, I find his M2 to be very mannered and dislike his way with M7.
Of course price is often an important consideration for many new to Mahler, or any other composer. That was the foundation of Naxos' success.
The recent Chailly Mahler set price reduction has helped it being recommended more often. Some other sets often mentioned as good value are Sony Bernstein, Bertini, Kubelik, but Bernstein on either DG or Sony can be a poor recommendation for a newbie. Of the two, the DG might be best recommendation, being somewhat less raw interpretively and more attractive soundwise, but even with its recent mini-boxsets price reduction, it is a pricey buy. Hanssler Gielen is another pricey set that points to more abstract readings.
Most if not all things considered, I think the Chailly and Bertini sets are the two best good value recommendations at the moment, with the Bertini probably speaking better to the Mahler old hand.
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It isn't only for beginners. Chailly might just have the best sound quality of any Cycle currently available, thats the things that pushed my hand purchasing it. It indulges itself in the 'sound' world of Mahler more thoroughly then any specific interpreting aspects. That how I see it at least. I'm thinking of getting a second boxset soon, probably either Bertini, Bernstein (Sony), or Kubelik.
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Get all of those!! Seriously, that's a tough choice. I still think that the Bertini is the most consistant through the entire canon (cannon?).
Barry
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Because of the price and the inclusion of Das Lied...I'm seriously considering getting the Bertini set before I get the Gielen set.
How is the Bertini M1 rated...what is it like?
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Bertini's M1 is fresh and youthful; just as the piece should be. I've only heard once or twice, but liked it just fine.
Barry
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Getting the entire Chailly set is a good idea, but it's also worth seeking for SACD versions of the M3rd and M9th, arguably the best in the set that sound even finer on the Super Audio editions.
John,
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Thanks John, but right now I don't have a SA player...(Does it have DSD also?)
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Even on a regular CD player these hybrid SACDs sound much better than the regular CD versions. So try them.
John
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I hate to be a naysayer here, but I am skeptical of claims that the CD layer of an SACD would sound different than the stand-alone CD of the same performance (Note: I am trying to be as non-offensive as possible here). I may very well be wrong on this, but I don't imagine that there is any different mastering going on between the two different discs (i.e. I would expect the CD layers to be indentical). Of course, all that matters is what your ears tell you, but I would not suggest that someone purchase a hybrid disc expecting it sound better than the stand-alone CD. YMMV! I would certainly purchase a hybrid disc: a) if you have an SACD player, or b) if you might ever buy one -- SACD's do sound wonderful!
Note to BMG Music Club members -- The Chailly set may be available to you for $40 with free shipping, as that is my current offer from them. I would consider buying it again at that price, but only if I am drunkenly celebrating Da Bears Super Bowl victory this weekend!!!
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Even though I have most of the Chailly set in separate discs (2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10), I might actually buy the set just to get 1, 4 and 7. Chailly's M5 is my clear favorite of the seven or eight M5 recordings I own, and I've played it probably more frequently then any other CD I own over the last 2-3 years. His M3, played in either CD or 2-channel SACD, is, to my ears, one of the best-sounding orchestral recordings ever, with superb sonic presence, and is my favorite performance of the piece. Chailly's M6 is a great recording as well -- he takes the first movement slower than other conductors, and it conveys more gravity, more menace, than any other recording of M6 that I know.
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I heard Chailly's live M3rd (Tokyo) and M9th (Amsterdam) and they are even finer than the commercial recordings.
John,
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I heard Chailly's live M3rd (Tokyo) and M9th (Amsterdam) and they are even finer than the commercial recordings.
John,
:o
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I just bought the Chailly boxset, I couldn't help myself... ::) I think it had to do with my love of the 'beautiful' aspects of Mahler, and that Chailly is disputably the one who envisions this type best. The grotesque Mahler of Bernstein and Abbado fits me sometimes, but not always. It could be said that the 'folk' music of the Slavic, Bohemian, and Hebrew regions generated perhaps the most 'visceral' musical experience possible, and Mahler is its demigod. These characteristics don't necessarily need be treated harshly or expressionistically as some do. I think of Abbado current Berlin Live series, the 6th and 9th are key, though all are very well preformed. If he continues this series, I would consider getting that set as well. Chailly boxset is making me so excited I can barely contain myself. :o
Good choice particularly for 2,3,5,7,8,9,10.
Alex
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Maybe nobody knows the answer (or can answer this one) but.....
Was Chailly generally well-received during his tenure in Amsterdam by both critics and public? I'm not just talking about his Mahler cycle, but all of his years....
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You have to keep in mind that Chailly took over after Haitink had the orchestra for several decades. Also, Chailly wasn't Haitink's first choice by any means. My impression - and it's only an impression - is that the Chailly years were fairly well received, but had a few rocky moments as well. As much as I'm not a big Haitink fan, having to follow Haitink after so many years of him doing such consistent work, must be a tough act to follow.
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It's curious why some of the well known Mahler conductors, e.g. Abbado, Chailly, Ozawa, have never recorded DLVDE.
Thus, we don't get DLVDE in the Chailly box set :-\.
Believe me, I heard a live Chailly/RCO concert in Boston in early 90s and it was excellent. I also heard a live recording of Ozawa conducting BSO and that too was really good.
I guess they are all AFRAID of the literal and thematic contents of the music in one way or another.
John,
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Speaking of the Ozawa concert it was by far the best played, the most beautifully interpreted DLVDE I ever heard.
John,
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I read in the N.Y. Times that Ozawa conducted his first concert in a long time, but could only get through one movement. He's had some kind of cancer, and there's a lingering side effect that keeps him from conducting for any great length. What a shame. I hope he feels better soon.
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I read in the N.Y. Times that Ozawa conducted his first concert in a long time, but could only get through one movement. He's had some kind of cancer, and there's a lingering side effect that keeps him from conducting for any great length. What a shame. I hope he feels better soon.
I join you in wishing him well. For those interested, here's the New York Times article Barry mentioned:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/07/arts/music/07seiji.html
James
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I heard Ozawa had a cancer in his throat.
I am not sure how he is doing now though.
John,
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I heard Ozawa had a cancer in his throat.
I am not sure how he is doing now though.
John,
The NY Times article said he had esophageal (sp?) cancer. Though it says he is now cancer-free, I'm sure he's on a very limited regimen of activity, and the article indicated as such.
Wade
P.S. - While on Ozawa, the one Mahler performance I remember enjoying was his M8 on Philips while he was in Boston. That was a good, solid, all-around performance you could expect to hear from a good orchestra most any time. It's been a good while since I've listened to it, and I ought to pull it out and give it a fresh listening. I never did get his Boston M2, and should spring for it one of these days.
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Speaking of the Ozawa concert it was by far the best played, the most beautifully interpreted DLVDE I ever heard.
John,
Yeah, I've got this one from an opera share download. It is an excellent two male version.
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You have to keep in mind that Chailly took over after Haitink had the orchestra for several decades. Also, Chailly wasn't Haitink's first choice by any means. My impression - and it's only an impression - is that the Chailly years were fairly well received, but had a few rocky moments as well. As much as I'm not a big Haitink fan, having to follow Haitink after so many years of him doing such consistent work, must be a tough act to follow.
Interesting that Chailly wasn't Haitink's 1st choice? Do we know who he wanted to succeed him? It also seems to me that Chailly was more adventurous in his repertoire (The complete Varese for example) than what Hiatink was dishing out. Yes?
On another semi-related note - I gave the Chailly M3 a complete spin today and I have to say it is just incredible from beginning to end. Everything sounds "right" to me, with boatloads of emotion, passion, and keen detail. On top of the stellar sonics, the playing of this group is just outrageous. They are so T-I-G-H-T and I cannot recall one single instance of any intonation problems whatsoever. I also dig the gongs (tam-tams?) and the manner in which the percussion in general was recorded.
I own a decent-sized Mahler collection at this point, and this M3 may be in the top 5 or so of the absolute creme de la creme.
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Chailly was a rock drummer and percussionist, so he makes certain that all percussion detail gets recorded real clearly. It's one reason he's so good with the Varese stuff. His Cleveland "Rite Of Spring" is great that way also.
I don't know if Haitink had anyone in mind for the RCO, but it sounded as though there were some "sour grapes" on his part. That's my take, anyway. Haitink is fine when he simply isn't going too slow. At slow tempi, he's no match for Celibidache, Giulini, or other "slower is better" specialists.