the ending of M8 is usually messed up.

[barry guerrero]

I've been going through my  collection, as well as a bunch of Youtube performances, of the ending to M8. The best endings so far are Markus Stenz (Oehms), Jonathan Nott (Tudor) and Antoni Wit (Naxos). I'm guessing that Maazel/N.Y. would very strong as well.  David Zinman is also really good, but there isn't enough of the tam-tam at the end (everything else is great). Boulez is actually quite good, but it could use both more organ and more tam-tam. Dudamel is quite good as well, but also a tad on the quick side for my taste (I love his huge choral forces!). Colin Davis also has a very well judged ending, but his recording could use a bit more organ. Oh, and yes, Chailly is really terrific on dvd (Leipzig). Anyway, let’s dig in.

In 'studio' recordings the strings, woodwinds and chorus should all be left out of the session (I’m talking about just the orchestral ending). At some point, the tape should be spliced with the unnecessay forces left out for more hall resonance. I suggest it could be done at the spot where the timpani come in, answered by suspended cymbal crashes - and, by the way, I think those suspended cymbal crashes should be amended to three pairs of hand cymbals (use suspended cymbals at the very end, where the cymbals are unison with the tam-tam).

Anyway, the ending could be recorded with just the offstage brass (which could be placed anywhere that works best), onstage brass, organ (ALL stops out - pedal to the metal!) and percussion. Two bass drums should be employed, so that the timpani only have to play forte (not fortissimo). The bass drums should be tilted sideways or facing downwards for more even rolls. One bass drum can make a big crescendo on the final chord, while the other bass drum handles the final 'thwap' at the end. The tam-tam needs to be at least a 100cm (40'') Wuhan type - not a Paiste. Ideally, a 120cm (51'') Wuhan should be employed. The gong mallet needs to have a large surface area. Otherwise you get too percussive of a start to the note (the Amsterdam Concertgebouw is actually bad about that, believe it or not).

For better resonance, the tam-tam should be turned so that the narrow flange is facing the conductor and audience. In nearly ALL performances, the face of the tam-tam is facing the audience. That is, of course, the most visually pleasing placement; but it's not the best in terms of sound and resonance. In addition, the tam-tam should not be placed too close to the back wall. The cymbal that’s marked in unison with the tam-tam should be, in my opinion, ammended to two suspended cymbals, played by two pairs of cymbal mallets (a pair on each cymbal). They should be struck near the edge on opposing sides, and be permitted to resonate like a gong. They should be fairly large suspended cymbals. In addition to all that - and perhaps most importantly - they be should be struck just slightly AFTER the tam-tam. In far too many recordings the cymbals speak much quicker than the tam-tam, with the unfortunate result of the tam-tam being completely covered over. Wrong!

The point of all this is not to make the ending louder, but to make it clearer, stronger and more ‘profound’ sounding that it normally comes across. In far too many performances, the conductor becomes so overwhelmed with emotions that he actually takes the ending too quickly. Conductors rarely address percussion issues, so the players tend to read the page TOO literally, with the unhappy result of the cymbals covering over the tam-tam (as previously discussed). The ending to Mahler 8 should not be treated as just a ‘postlude’ to the rest of the symphony. Instead, it should be treated for what it is at face value: the culmination of ALL western music up to the year 1910.

Markus Stenz (jump to 10:03). This is the right idea!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRWwPcQGzIQ

say what you will about Maazel (Munich), he gets brass players to blow like nobody else (jump to 7:30)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu-FAO7uQvw

And even if he over-conducts, there's nothing like the thrill of Bernstein
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQRBdv29Q5I

Finally, let's not forget Gary Bertini, even if the cymbals drown out the tam-tam at the very end
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRoP5q7yvBw

[Ben]

A nice rundown, Barry. I agree, this magnificent conclusion to the symphony (and the culmination of western music) is oft-maligned. To me, the most egregious mistake is taking it too quickly, which you had mentioned. I feel it completely destroys the mood and makes it sound perfunctory - like a tagged-on postlude. In this regard, I like Gary Bertini's recording the best (well, it's one of my favorite recordings, regardless). He gives the ending its full due in weight and stature.

Interesting notes on some percussion technique. I'll add those to some of my notes. 

Other M8 favorites of mine are Antoni Wit, Kent Nagano (the ending is too fast, though; unfortunate because I like this recording!), and Riccardo Chailly (both RCO and Leipzig).

[barry guerrero]

Most conductors just ignore the percussion and trust the players to do the right thing. The trouble with that is,  A.) the players can't hear what they sound like from out in the hall (only what things sound like around them) and, B.) They'll set up their equipment in a manner which makes it simpler for them to move around and cover the different parts. That's all well and good, except that a large tam-tam may not sound so great backed up to a wall.

Also, many percussionists don't take gongs seriously, so they'll use a 'one size fits all' approach to gong mallets. I use three different mallets. For fortissimo strokes, I use a heavy 'bomber' which not only has greater weight, it has a larger than normal surface area. It makes a BIG difference on large gongs. Then I have a lighter mallet with a very hard head on it. I use that one for soft strokes that I want to 'speak' very quickly. I've used that mallet at the beginning (and elsewhere) in "der Abschied" from "DLvdE". Then I have a more 'all purpose' mallet that I use for everything between mezzopiano and forte. If you find yourself not getting the right sound out of a gong, see if the percussionist wouldn't be willing to turn it with the narrow end facing you and the audience. Also, look into the mallets they're using for loud strokes. These things can make a big difference. If it's a Paiste, drop into the recycling dumpster when nobody is around and get somebody to buy a good Wuhan - 34 or 36 inch ones are great 'all purpose' gongs.

But there are other percussion issues that seldom get addressed. Percussionists usually don't want to draw attention to themselves, so they'll almost NEVER hold a triangle up closer to shoulder height.  When I last did Mahler 6, we used three triangles at the end of the first movement, and held all three of them up high. Cowbells are nearly ALWAYS a disaster. I like my cowbells like my martinis: shaken, not stirred.

There's a new trend to play suspended cowbells with timpani sticks. It's easier but I think it sucks. Cowbells should be suspended on a heavy strap, and the strap should - more or less - be shaken up and down (with contrary motion going on at the two ends). Also - and nobody ever thinks of this! - it's better not to hang the cowbells by their graduated sizes - they should be all mixed up (size wise).  At the start of the climactic passage of the slow movement of Mahler 6, there's a loud spot where the onstage cowbells need to cut through 8 or 9 horns playing fortissimo in unison.

At that spot, the strap of cowbells should literally be held up high. Not only do you need to get them to cut through the horns, there should be a visual component for the audience as well.  There are other places in Mahler where percussion parts need to be doubled.

For example, the snare drum part at the 'southern storm' passage of the first movement to Mahler 3 really should be doubled. The offstage snare drum solo that bridges the 'southern storm' to the reprise of the movement's opening horn fanfare, should be played by at least two snare drums, if not three (and they shouldn't be too close to the door). The point isn't that the offstage drum should sound louder, it's that it should sound as though a regiment of drummers are playing.

Enough of that. Feel free to fly me out as a 'consultant' when you next put on a Mahler symphony 

[barry guerrero]

Oh, here's another funny thought regarding gongs     There are about 50 million of these therapeutic 'gong bath' postings on Youtube. They're very interesting in terms of the sounds they get out of a gong, but they're complete nonsense in terms of how to properly play a big tam-tam. They all buy these giant gongs, then use these tiny, undersized mallets on them. They're looking to get all kinds of high overtones from the gongs, so they tend to play them out towards the flange. It's all very interesting, but they could probably get the same exact result using a somewhat bigger mallet on a smaller tam-tam.

"Ohhhm, how I love you, how I love, my dear old swami"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpU2noreEyc

"gee Yogi, that's a pretty good sound for a Paiste".
"ehhh Boo-Boo, that's because I'm smarter than the average Yogi, I mean: bear"

Don't try this at home unless you use earplugs!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx4NbpWlgJg
Sounds like banging trash can lids.

These people are just plain nuts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQZ7zQ9asq4

what a waste of highly expensive gongs!

[techniquest]

Have you heard the M8 recording by Edo de Waart with the Netherlands Radio Symphony Orchestra? This one has a great ending with reasonable organ sound, stomach-rumbling bass drum and a very nice tam-tam (though you might not like it 'cos I think it's a Paiste).
Yesterday I listened to the recording from the Segerstam set with the Danish National Radio SO; he has a very odd way with the tam-tam at the end, choosing to have a crescendo 'roll' towards each of the crashes (with the cymbals), and adds a crescendo roll into the final chord.

[barry guerrero]

Yes, I still the De Waart and completely agree with your enthusiastic thoughts. I'm quite certain their tam-tam is a Wuhan. Pretty much only England and France still use Paistes.

And yes, the Segerstam 'thang' is pretty weird. I think his idea would have worked better if he used two tam-tams: one for the crescendo rolls (perhaps in unison with a second bass drum as well ), and another larger one to be struck from a dead stop in unison with the cymbals (and allowing the one doing the rolls to continue ringing on, just as he's already doing).