gustavmahlerboard.com
General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: John Kim on December 23, 2009, 06:00:17 PM
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http://www.highdeftapetransfers.com/storefront.php
It's great news.
They also have a remastered Szell/CVLO M4th:
http://www.6moons.com/musicreviews/2009_april/mahler4.html
John,
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John (or anyone who knows),
have you heard any cd of the remasters from hdtt?
How is the sound? Is it worth for the price they ask?
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John (or anyone who knows),
have you heard any cd of the remasters from hdtt?
How is the sound? Is it worth for the price they ask?
No, and I was going to ask the same question.
But in the case of the Horenstein M3rd I'd take ANY degree of improvement. I was gravely disappointed with the sound quality of the Unicorn CD reissue.
Another question I have is, what's the source of the Haitink M7th they are going to remaster.
John,
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The pages state that the source for the 24/96 CD transfer for the Horenstein M3 is a Unicorn 4-track tape and that the source of the Szell M4 is also a 4-track tape. For those who already have these recordings on reel (I do), it won't be worth the extra money. It will only benefit those who are without reel equipment.
Wade
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John (or anyone who knows),
have you heard any cd of the remasters from hdtt?
How is the sound? Is it worth for the price they ask?
No, and I was going to ask the same question.
But in the case of the Horenstein M3rd I'd take ANY degree of improvement. I was gravely disappointed with the sound quality of the Unicorn CD reissue.
Another question I have is, what's the source of the Haitink M7th they are going to remaster.
John,
I recall Barry and others saying the LSO M3 sounds much better in the Brilliant box cycle than in the standard old Unicorn CD set.
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Quote from: akiraix on December 25, 2009, 03:56:09 AM
I recall Barry and others saying the LSO M3 sounds much better in the Brilliant box cycle than in the standard old Unicorn CD set.
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I have both the Unicorn and the Brilliant Classics versions of the Horenstein/LSO Mahler 3. To me they sound exactly the same, and I've listened very carefully, hoping to hear an improvement. There is even precisely the same amount of time on lead-ins and lead-outs, meaning the timings for all movements are identical, as is the TT – almost never the case with a remastering. I'm convinced that Brilliant simply released the Unicorn mastering unaltered – pretty much what you'd expect from a super-budget label.
I wish Jerry Bruck (Posthorn Recordings, NYC) would be permitted to release the minimally-miked recording (probably Schoeps mics in ORTF configuration) he made during the original Unicorn recording sessions. Jerry is a master, and I'm sure his recording is revelatory.
James
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I wish Jerry Bruck (Posthorn Recordings, NYC) would be permitted to release the minimally-miked recording (probably Schoeps mics in ORTF configuration) he made during the original Unicorn recording sessions. Jerry is a master, and I'm sure his recording is revelatory.
James
That would be a dream come true for me too! I'd much rather have Bruck's recording.
I no longer have the Unicorn CD since my vinyl copy sounds so much better in comparison. I'm tempted by this new remastering though.
--Todd
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I wish Jerry Bruck (Posthorn Recordings, NYC) would be permitted to release the minimally-miked recording (probably Schoeps mics in ORTF configuration) he made during the original Unicorn recording sessions. Jerry is a master, and I'm sure his recording is revelatory.
Even my Barclay-Crocker Unicorn 4-track reel tape recording seems to have spatial problems between mimimalist and close-in miking, which makes for a bit of an aural "mish-mash". I didn't know that there was a minimalist recording made during the same sessions made by Jerry Bruck. If anything, this would be the way to go for the 24/96 CD issue, and in this respect, I would be willing to make an additional investment in this legendary recording. Do you have additional information on this (specifically, as to why this minimalist recording has never seen the light of day)?
Wade
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Do you have additional information on this (specifically, as to why this minimalist recording has never seen the light of day)?
My understanding is that Jerry lacks the necessary releases and legal permissions required to permit a commercial release. Unicorn would surely have put severe restrictions on the future use of any such recording.
James
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Merry Xmas to you all!! :D
I confirmed that the 1983 Haitink/RCO M7th that they are going to release has never been released before. It's based on a reel tape someone recorded off air privately.
John,
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According to Tony Duggan, two separate sets of mikes were running at the Horenstein M3 sessions. The Brilliant Classics one is allegedly identical to the one that was issued on Nonesuch. To me, the Nonesuch and Brilliant Classics set sound far better - to my likes and dislikes - than the Unicorn one. Also too my ears, they don't sound even remotely alike. I vastly prefer both the Nonesuch and Brilliant Classics recordings. I've never liked the Unicorn one, but I'm perfectly willing to keep an open mind to these new remasterings.
Barry
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Merry Xmas to you all!! :D
I confirmed that the 1983 Haitink/RCO M7th that they are going to release has never been released before. It's based on a reel tape someone recorded off air privately.
John,
Correction.
This is NOT a private recording. It was made by PBS. I heard the CD will be based on the master tape made as such.
John,
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Thanks for the correction, John.
Robert L. Berkman,
Mojave Desert CA.............and Merry Happy to All.
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Hi.
I will almost bet anything, that the Unicorn and the Brilliant is NOT identical. My guess is that Brilliant must have had access to the tapes, and simply put on what was there, without ANY form of fiddeling. That would be cheap productionwise. The dynamics on the Brilliant issue is totally different from the Unicorn one. I will add that I have encountered this on several reissues from Brilliant Classics, and that I always play my licensed reissues, instead of the original ones.
Steen
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To me, the Nonesuch and Brilliant Classics set sound far better - to my likes and dislikes - than the Unicorn one. Also too my ears, they don't sound even remotely alike. I vastly prefer both the Nonesuch and Brilliant Classics recordings. I've never liked the Unicorn one...
Barry
The dynamics on the Brilliant issue is totally different from the Unicorn one.
Steen
Then we seem to have a mystery on our hands. Over the weekend, I listened again to my two CD versions of the Horenstein/LSO M3 (Unicorn and Brilliant Classics) on sophisitcated, high-resolution audio gear, and heard not the slightest degree of difference. Spectral balance was the same, imaging was the same, and dynamic range was the same. When loaded into ProTools, the two sets of waveform graphs matched precisely, giving objective confirmation to what I heard.
I've since had the following Email exchange with Gunter Van Rompaey of Brilliant Classics:
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James Meckley to Gunter Van Rompaey:
I have a question about the contents of your boxed set of Mahler symphonies (#99549), specifically about the recording of the third symphony, by Jascha Horenstein and the London Symphony. Is your release a direct copy of the original Unicorn CD, or did you remaster or re-equalize it in some way? In other words, should I expect your CD of this symphony to sound exactly like the original Unicorn CD, or might I expect it to sound different in some way?
Sincerely, etc., etc.
Gunter Van Rompaey to James Meckley:
Thanks for your inquiry. I can indeed confirm that the recording has not been remastered and is the same as the licensed one from Unicorn. I hope this information is useful to you.
Best regards,
Gunter Van Rompaey
Team Brilliant Classics
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So Brilliant says they're the same and they sound exactly the same to me, yet others have heard significant, even dramatic, differences. I don't understand what's going on here.
James
P.S.
Of course, Tony Duggan is correct—there were two sets of microphones deployed during the original recording sessions, but that has no bearing on the issue at hand. One set was Bob Auger's, for Unicorn-Kanchana. The other set was Jerry Bruck's, for his own purposes.
Mr. Auger's tape has been used for the following:
1) The initial Unicorn LP release
2) The Nonesuch LP release
3) The Advent CrO2 (chromium dioxide) Dolby B cassette release—remember those?
4) The Barclay-Crocker quarter-track open-reel tape release
5) The Unicorn CD release
6) The Brilliant Classics CD release
Mr. Bruck's tape has never seen any commercial release.
JM
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Mr. Auger's tape has been used for the following:
1) The initial Unicorn LP release
2) The Nonesuch LP release
3) The Advent CrO2 (chromium dioxide) Dolby B cassette release—remember those?
4) The Barclay-Crocker quarter-track open-reel tape release
5) The Unicorn CD release
6) The Brilliant Classics CD release
I forgot to mention in my earlier post that I also have the Advent CrO2 chromium dioxide Dolby B cassette release, and can state that it is brighter-sounding than the Barclay-Crocker quarter-track open reel tape, though the thin CrO2 tape cannot accommodate the higher sound pressure levels in the upper frequencies as well as the open reel. The open reel also has a bit more spacious sound than the CrO2 cassette.
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Wade,
I'm not surprised that the Advent cassette sounds different in its treble range from the Barclay-Crocker. Given the critical level matching required for proper Dolby-B playback, system output for those tapes was always hit-or-miss—sometimes brighter and sometimes duller than it should have been, depending on whether the particular playback deck in use had its "Dolby Level" set too high or too low, to say nothing of the proper azimuth alignment on those tiny heads.
Do you have any of the other Advent releases? There was a Horenstein M1, and I remember Horenstein's Nielsen 5 with particular fondness, especially the first movement, despite the one-measure-early side drum entrance by Alfred Dukes—otherwise the best realization of that drum solo I've ever heard, live or on record.
James
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I'm not surprised that the Advent cassette sounds different in its treble range from the Barclay-Crocker. Given the critical level matching required for proper Dolby-B playback, system output for those tapes was always hit-or-miss—sometimes brighter and sometimes duller than it should have been, depending on whether the particular playback deck in use had its "Dolby Level" set too high or too low, to say nothing of proper azimuth alignment on those tiny heads.
Do you have any of the other Advent releases? There was a Horenstein M1, and I remember Horenstein's Nielsen 5 with particular fondness, especially the first movement, despite the one-measure-early side drum entrance by Alfred Dukes—otherwise the best realization of that drum solo I've ever heard, live or on record.
I don't have any of the other Advent releases. I should have bought the Horenstein M1 Advent cassette, though I do have it on Barclay-Crocker reel. I still have the original Advent 201 cassette deck that I bought back in '74 that the M3 was played on. It doesn't record as well, probably due to head misalignment, but it still plays the M3 quite well.
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I don't have any of the other Advent releases. I should have bought the Horenstein M1 Advent cassette, though I do have it on Barclay-Crocker reel. I still have the original Advent 201 cassette deck that I bought back in '74 that the M3 was played on. It doesn't record as well, probably due to head misalignment, but it still plays the M3 quite well.
It's funny how the mind works. Your mentioning the Advent 201 brought back memories of that era and of my own copy of the Advent Horenstein M3 (which I haven't played in many years). Mine had fine sound, but had a curious temporal defect which I wonder if yours shares. It would play straight through the first movement as expected but then, instead of starting the second movement, it would go back to a quiet spot about 5 or 6 minutes from the end of the first movement and play that much of it all over again! (I'm not talking about auto-rewind; that extra material was actually recorded on the tape, and if it was on mine it must have been on at least some others as well.)
James
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It's funny how the mind works. Your mentioning the Advent 201 brought back memories of that era and of my own copy of the Advent Horenstein M3 (which I haven't played in many years). Mine had fine sound, but had a curious temporal defect which I wonder if yours shares. It would play straight through the first movement as expected but then, instead of starting the second movement, it would go back to a quiet spot about 5 or 6 minutes from the end of the first movement and play that much of it all over again! (I'm not talking about auto-rewind; that extra material was actually recorded on the tape, and if it was on mine it must have been on at least some others as well.)
James,
It's surprising and curious that your copy of the Advent Horenstein M3 had that problem. Fortunately, mine didn't. BTW, I think I'm going to hold onto my copy of this particular tape, as I'll bet it's pretty valuable, as well as the Barclay-Crocker reel. The BC reel goes for quite a princely sum in mail order and ebay auctions, I've noticed.
Wade
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Believe it or not, that's exactly what we did when we played Mahler 3 with the Redwood Symphony about 12 years ago. The conductor wanted to put in a full-blown intermission - a good idea when dealing with a community orchestra audience. So, instead of beginning the second half with the start of the second movement, he played the coda section of the first movement over again. It actually worked quite well, and gave the percussion section a chance to "strut their stuff" a second time (we had my excellent Wuhan 100cm tam-tam).
Barry Guerrero
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Believe it or not, that's exactly what we did when we played Mahler 3 with the Redwood Symphony about 12 years ago. The conductor wanted to put in a full-blown intermission - a good idea when dealing with a community orchestra audience. So, instead of beginning the second half with the start of the second movement, he played the coda section of the first movement over again. It actually worked quite well, and gave the percussion section a chance to "strut their stuff" a second time (we had my excellent Wuhan 100cm tam-tam).
Barry Guerrero
I see and understand your justification for the insertion of the intermission, but what was the conductor's reasoning? The same as your's?
Wade
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The Unicorn CDs were made at the Philips factory in Blackburn, England. There was a period when the material used for the production of CDs was faulty and it caused a degradation over a period of several years. I believe the official term was known as bronzing. The CD took on a bronze rather than a silver appearance. If the CD appeared bronze it did not automatically mean that a fault had developed. If it still appeared to be silver it was possible that degradation had started. I know that the Horenstein M3 CD was one of those affected. My copy seems to be OK but a couple of Hyperion CDs I had show the fault and these have been replaced. Philips were very helpful at the time and published a list of possible suspects. How many were in the suspect production run I know not. It occurs to me that this degradation might be the reason for the perceived difference between the Unicorn version and the one on the Brilliant Classics lable.
Bernard
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It's a long piece for the players as well. Personally, I think it's a good idea to insert an intermission in a live performance of M3. I believe that Eric - the conductor - felt that reprising the coda of the first movement helped the continuity of the work. Anyway, nobody seemed to mind. You can get away with this kind of things when you're not in a highly paid, high pressure, professional situation.
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It occurs to me that this degradation might be the reason for the perceived difference between the Unicorn version and the one on the Brilliant Classics lable.
Bernard
No. The Unicorn CDs sounded like that when it was first released. I know the difference you're mentioning; I owned Horenstein's M3rd both Unicorn LPs and CDs and the latter was not nearly as good sounding as the former. They had less depth and less details than the LPs were capable of reproducing. That is, it sounded as if all the high & low frequency contents had been filtered out.
John,
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It occurs to me that this degradation might be the reason for the perceived difference between the Unicorn version and the one on the Brilliant Classics lable.
Bernard
No. The Unicorn CDs sounded like that when it was first released. I know the difference you're mentioning; I owned Horenstein's M3rd both Unicorn LPs and CDs and the latter was not nearly as good sounding as the former. They had less depth and less details than the LPs were capable of reproducing. That is, it sounded as if all the high & low frequency contents had been filtered out.
John,
Exactly John, that is how I perceive the Unicorn. Admittedly my copy is a burnt one, as I tried to "better" the playback. (it actually works). Thank you James, for getting the details directly from the source. Its good to know, that at least in theory, the different issues should sound alike.
Steen
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One of the recordings that inspired this thread, the Horenstein/LSO Mahler 3 as remastered by High Definition Tape Transfers, has apparently been withdrawn from sale. A note has been added to the review of this recording on the Music Web International site:
"PLEASE NOTE we have received a communication from Unicorn-Kanchana alleging that this disc is being copied without their permission. This is a serious matter and AS A RESULT THIS DISC HAS BEEN WITHDRAWN"
Oops!
James
EDIT: Not surprisingly, the same note has been added to their review of Horenstein's LSO Mahler 1 from HDTT.
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This is a shame, particularly for those who have never heard the Barclay-Crocker reel tapes of these performances, which sound fabulous in that medium.
Unfortunately, the producers desiring to issue these recordings via high-resolution CD apparently failed to get their licensing ducks in a row before going as far as they did, particularly in publicizing the issuance of the CDs in that format. A lot of people, I know, are very disappointed, and I feel for them.
Wade
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I didn't know Unicorrn-Kanchana was still a functioning label.
Ivor
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I didn't know Unicorn-Kanchana was still a functioning label.
I don't believe they're still releasing titles, though some individual or corporate entity obviously retains copyright to their back catalogue and is occasionally licensing items to labels like Regis, Brilliant Classics, etc. It was pretty stupid (I was going to write naïve, but thought better of it) of HDTT to release these two titles without proper licensing and permissions if that's indeed what happened.
James
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You can read HDTT's position on US copyright law here:
http://www.highdeftapetransfers.com/page/7/faq.php
They or their lawyers seem to believe that when considering recordings made before 1972, only the original masters are afforded copyright protection; that the commercial releases of those recordings, whether LP, quarter-track tape, or CD, are not eligible for protection under US copyright law. This certainly seems at odds with the way others have interpreted the law, and I seem to recall a recent case involving Naxos that would call their interpretation into question. Anyway, it'll be interesting to follow the matter as it unfolds.
HDTT appear to have removed the items in question from their website, so perhaps they're rethinking their position.
James