Mahler's popularity

[Cristian]

Hi there!

It has been widely discussed the fact that Mahler is today one of the most performed and recorded composers. We all might have our points about why is this, but I was wondering: does anyone have some data on this? Sales figures, perhaps? I had been searching the web for this for a couple of minutes, but couldn't find anything.

Regards,
Cris.

[john haueisen]

I'm glad to see this question asked, Cristian. 
I too have heard that Mahler today ranks right up there with Mozart and Beethoven in the most-performed or most-recorded composers.
But the fact is, I haven't seen studies or reports on whether it's most-recorded or most-performed, and what the actual statistics are.  I hope some of our other GustavMahlerBoard members will post some information on this. 

[barry guerrero]

I think that that information would be difficult to come by, simply because the recording industry doesn't seem to keep track or post such figures. With Soundscan, it shouldn't be that difficult to get an idea how Mahler is doing vs. everyone else. But that also means that somebody within the industry has to take the time and trouble to look, then post. I also believe that online sales would be difficult to track, especially when people are purchasing directly from a symphony orchestra. My belief is that Mahler probably does much better online, than from impulse buys within a brick & mortor store. In spite of all the recordings being made, I don't see Mahler bins emptying out at record stores. In that sense, I believe that there's truly a glut of recordings.

Since I work in record stores, my own sense is that Mahler symphonies - in terms of sales - still lag behind those of Beethoven, but do better than the Tchaikovsky symphonies these days. That's just an impression.

Barry

[john haueisen]

Until one of us comes up with a way to determine Mahler's popularity today, here's a start.  I went to Amazon.com to search "Music" for the following four composers.  Now I understand that certainly Amazon may not be definitive, but for now it's a starting point of what is available TODAY from a huge dealer. 
Here's what I found:

Mahler:            2,792 items
Wagner:          5,975 items
Brahms:           8,000 items
Beethoven:    15,544 items

Whatever these numbers tell us, they do seem at least to indicate that Brother Barry is correct in his sense that Beethoven still rules.

[Wolfbane]

Mahler:            2,792 items
Wagner:          5,975 items
Brahms:           8,000 items
Beethoven:    15,544 items

Whatever these numbers tell us, they do seem at least to indicate that Brother Barry is correct in his sense that Beethoven still rules.

A handy start John. 
But if we now divide each of those totals by the number of unique items they represent, I think Mahler might come out a clear front runner given that he has so few individual compositions compared with the others.
Just a thought.

[Dave H]

I think this is correct. The absolute number of available recordings cannot be used as a measure, unless, for example, you specify a certain time-frame (recording began before Mahler's complete works had been written, after all, and if the question concerns their popularity today, then we should limite the discussion to, say, the past 20 years or so), make some correction for genre (no chamber music, no solo instrumental works), for total quantitative compositional output, for historical factors (Mahler being banned by the Nazis during WWII), and otherwise try to level the playing field. The popularity of Mahler can perhaps be better judged by looking at orchestral programming not just in major cities, but in small ones as well. Let me make some anecdotal observations along these lines that may offer some insights into the phenomenon.

1. Mahler is now routinely performed by community and youth orchestras. This started in the late 70s and early 80s, and in fact Barry G and I particpated in some performances of the First Symphony during this period. I have played the Sixth maybe a dozen times since, which is remarkable when you come to think about it. The reason Mahler is so popular at this "grass roots" level is that the parts are so rewarding to play that it's easy to get wind, brass, and percussion players who will volunteer their services. You would think that doing Mahler would be more difficult because the forces are so large, but this often turns out not to be the case. I've played all of the symphonies except the Eighth at the community level, and on multiple occasions. By contrast, works by, say, Bruckner or Sibelius are nearly impossible to program because string players often hate them (just try to do Sibelius' Fifth--half an hour of tremolos--and watch your string section vanish before your eyes).

2. For regular orchestras, Mahler symphonies offer the followning advantages:

a. They give today's large, permanent ensembles something for everyone to do. If you're doing to pay to keep 100+ people employed full time, you need to have large works on your program regularly.

b. They fill up an evening all by themselves--this is important because concerts are, on the whole, shorter than they used to be, so having one big, long symphony makes for a very satsifying program all by itself. Mahler's "worlds," particularly the symphonies with vocal soloists (Second, Third, Eighth) are particularly appealing in this respect.

c. The Second and Eighth are really great 'special occasion' pieces, particularly the Second, particularly after natural disasters, dedications of new concert halls, or splashy opening/farewell concerts.

d. They are actually MORE economical than you might think. Again, consider that the full orchestra is already getting paid, so if you don't want to incur the extra cost of a concerto soloist (and spend the rehearsal time on a mixed program), doing a single Mahler symphony is actually very efficient and cost-effective.

e. Similarly, they make great calling cards for orchestras on tour, and all of the above economic issues come into play even more forcefully for a travelling ensemble.

f. Finally, look at the move in Mahler performance away from the symphonies being the preserve of "specialists" to their being part of the basic repertoire of all major conductors active today. Of course, there will always be some exceptions--but the point is that they ARE exceptions.

3. The limited number of actual works makes Mahler's entire output manageable for both listeners and performing arts organizations (just as Beethoven's nine symphonies are), while the incredible variety from one work to the next makes hearing them all endlessly fascinating. There's value is scarcity! This also makes Mahler a perfect "festival" composer--ideal for themed surveys of his complete output over a season, or shorter period. Consider ventures as diverse as the Colorado MahlerFest devoted to single works, or the complete cycle being given at Carnegie Hall next season within a few short weeks.

4. Mahler's life makes a terrific story. Never underestimate the unfortunately large impact of extra-musical considerations on a composer's popularity. If Mozart hadn't died young, or had been wealthy and successful, would we care about the junk he wrote when he was a kid? I doubt it!

5. Final anecdote: remember the film Educating Rita? When Rita finally goes to colleage and meets her strung-out, suicidal roomate who opens the door of their flat to the strains of Kubelik's Mahler Sixth and the line "Couldn't you just die with Maaaaahler?" When you "break through" in popular culture like that, you've surely arrived!

One way to research this further is to go to the American Symphony Orchestra Leaque website (asol.org) and look at programs, particularly in out of the way places. You will often see Mahler programmed, and this I think speaks for itself.

Dave H

[john haueisen]

Wow, Wolfbane and Dave H--What excellent thoughts you have expressed about the difficulties in determining Mahler's popularity.

The fact of his relatively few compositions illustrates how amazing it is that he is this popular.
Dave H presents explanations via the benefits of performing Mahler's works.  I had always thought of the difficulty of performing Mahler, but Dave has pointed out benefits to the musicians and to both large and small orchestras.

Thanks for these great elucidations.

[Dave H]

The fact the Mahler wrote comparatively few works is not a barrier to his popularity, it is a plus, particularly in our busy world. Think of the composers who are extremely popular for just one or two works: Gershwin, Bizet, Carl Orff, Mascagni, Mussorsky--I could go on and one. It's easier for people to deal with less.

Best,
Dave H

[Cristian]

Hi there!

Thanks for the replies!!

Here's some data I could find: Number of recordings in the ArkivMusic website.

The problem here, as in the case of haueisen's data from Amazon, is that we cannot know how many of those recordings are from the last -say- 30 years. Anyway, here it goes:

#   Composer      Recordings 1   Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus   6427 2   Bach, Johann Sebastian   5652 3   Beethoven, Ludwig van   4791 4   Schubert, Franz      3263 5   Brahms, Johannes      3261 6   Verdi, Giuseppe      3171 7   Tchaikovsky, Peter Ilyich   2889 8   Handel, George Frideric      2410 9   Schumann, Robert      2224 10   Mendelssohn, Felix      2208 11   Wagner, Richard      2073 12   Chopin, Frédéric      2041 13   Debussy, Claude      2035 14   Puccini, Giacomo      1983 15   Liszt, Franz                      1830 16   Haydn, Franz Joseph      1773 17   Vivaldi, Antonio      1756 18   Dvorák, Antonín      1700 19   Rossini, Gioachino      1629 20   Ravel, Maurice      1601 21   Rachmaninov, Sergei      1542 22   Strauss, Richard      1487 23   Bizet, Georges      1473 24   Saint-Saëns, Camille      1339 25   Donizetti, Gaetano      1297 26   Gounod, Charles      1217 27   Prokofiev, Sergei      1206 28   Fauré, Gabriel      1140 29   Massenet, Jules      1128 30   Shostakovich, Dmitri      1108 31   Grieg, Edvard      1102 32   Mahler, Gustav      1003 33   Strauss Jr., Johann      936 34   Elgar, Sir Edward      932 35   Stravinsky, Igor      887 36   Berlioz, Hector      790 37   Sibelius, Jean      777 38   Bellini, Vincenzo      756 39   Rimsky-Korsakov, Nikolai   752 40   Britten, Benjamin      747 41   Franck, César      747 42   Vaughan Williams, Ralph   711 43   Mussorgsky, Modest      710 44   Bartók, Béla      699 45   Gershwin, George      696 46   Weber, Carl Maria von      696 47   Purcell, Henry      688 48   Mascagni, Pietro      669 49   Leoncavallo, Ruggero      668 50   Telemann, Georg Philipp   647 51   Bruckner, Anton      618 52   Offenbach, Jacques      597 53   Falla, Manuel de      572 54   Gluck, Christoph W.      551 55   Poulenc, Francis      527 56   Copland, Aaron      492 57   Barber, Samuel      474 58   Scarlatti, Domenico      474 59   Villa-Lobos, Heitor      471 60   Pachelbel, Johann      468 61   Albeniz, Isaac      456 62   Bernstein, Leonard      452 63   Satie, Erik                      450 64   Smetana, Bedrich      440 65   Monteverdi, Claudio      424 66   Hindemith, Paul      419 67   Borodin, Alexander      407 68   Holst, Gustav      406 69   Paganini, Niccolò      402 70   Granados, Enrique      398 71   Delibes, Léo      392 72   Boccherini, Luigi      382 73   Albinoni, Tomaso      372 74   Scriabin, Alexander      372 75   Janácek, Leos      362 76   Rodrigo, Joaquin      362 77   Byrd, William      353 78   Lehár, Franz      353 79   Bruch, Max                      326 80   Walton, Sir William      326 81   Kreisler, Fritz      318 82   Respighi, Ottorino      318 83   Corelli, Arcangelo      292 84   Khachaturian, Aram      287 85   Nielsen, Carl      283 86   Glazunov, Alexander      271 87   Ives, Charles      245 88   Sarasate, Pablo de      221 89   Rameau, Jean-Philippe      220 90   Hummel, Johann Nepomuk   208 91   Bloch, Ernest      203 92   Ponce, Manuel      198 93   Delius, Frederick      195 94   Korngold, Erich Wolfgang   195 95   Pärt, Arvo                      181 96   Arnold, Malcolm      140 97   Bach, Johann Christian      139 98   Marais, Marin      106 99   Lully, Jean-Baptiste      105 100   Rautavaara, Einojuhani      87 TOTAL         100577

[john haueisen]

Thanks for the further research, Cristian.
OUCH!  Poor Gustav would be piqued to have been edged out for 31st place by Edvard Grieg!

[Ben]

Also, while it provides a general comparison, there is no way to tell from these numbers how many are duplicate recordings (reissues, repackaging, Arkiv CDs, etc.).  And how many of these recordings feature a movement or two on a compilation CD?  I think it would be a very difficult task to identify accurately numbers of recordings.

Ben

[john haueisen]

Good point, Ben.
I had considered the difficulty of spotting reissues, but I had not thought of how many listings might just be one track on a compilation.  This would be tough to evaluate.

[Polarius T]

I think this is correct. The absolute number of available recordings cannot be used as a measure, unless, for example, you specify a certain time-frame (recording began before Mahler's complete works had been written, after all, and if the question concerns their popularity today, then we should limite the discussion to, say, the past 20 years or so), make some correction for genre (no chamber music, no solo instrumental works), for total quantitative compositional output, for historical factors (Mahler being banned by the Nazis during WWII), and otherwise try to level the playing field. The popularity of Mahler can perhaps be better judged by looking at orchestral programming not just in major cities, but in small ones as well. Let me make some anecdotal observations along these lines that may offer some insights into the phenomenon.

1. Mahler is now routinely performed by community and youth orchestras. This started in the late 70s and early 80s, and in fact Barry G and I particpated in some performances of the First Symphony during this period. I have played the Sixth maybe a dozen times since, which is remarkable when you come to think about it. The reason Mahler is so popular at this "grass roots" level is that the parts are so rewarding to play that it's easy to get wind, brass, and percussion players who will volunteer their services. You would think that doing Mahler would be more difficult because the forces are so large, but this often turns out not to be the case. I've played all of the symphonies except the Eighth at the community level, and on multiple occasions. By contrast, works by, say, Bruckner or Sibelius are nearly impossible to program because string players often hate them (just try to do Sibelius' Fifth--half an hour of tremolos--and watch your string section vanish before your eyes).

2. For regular orchestras, Mahler symphonies offer the followning advantages:

a. They give today's large, permanent ensembles something for everyone to do. If you're doing to pay to keep 100+ people employed full time, you need to have large works on your program regularly.

b. They fill up an evening all by themselves--this is important because concerts are, on the whole, shorter than they used to be, so having one big, long symphony makes for a very satsifying program all by itself. Mahler's "worlds," particularly the symphonies with vocal soloists (Second, Third, Eighth) are particularly appealing in this respect.

c. The Second and Eighth are really great 'special occasion' pieces, particularly the Second, particularly after natural disasters, dedications of new concert halls, or splashy opening/farewell concerts.

d. They are actually MORE economical than you might think. Again, consider that the full orchestra is already getting paid, so if you don't want to incur the extra cost of a concerto soloist (and spend the rehearsal time on a mixed program), doing a single Mahler symphony is actually very efficient and cost-effective.

e. Similarly, they make great calling cards for orchestras on tour, and all of the above economic issues come into play even more forcefully for a travelling ensemble.

f. Finally, look at the move in Mahler performance away from the symphonies being the preserve of "specialists" to their being part of the basic repertoire of all major conductors active today. Of course, there will always be some exceptions--but the point is that they ARE exceptions.

3. The limited number of actual works makes Mahler's entire output manageable for both listeners and performing arts organizations (just as Beethoven's nine symphonies are), while the incredible variety from one work to the next makes hearing them all endlessly fascinating. There's value is scarcity! This also makes Mahler a perfect "festival" composer--ideal for themed surveys of his complete output over a season, or shorter period. Consider ventures as diverse as the Colorado MahlerFest devoted to single works, or the complete cycle being given at Carnegie Hall next season within a few short weeks.

4. Mahler's life makes a terrific story. Never underestimate the unfortunately large impact of extra-musical considerations on a composer's popularity. If Mozart hadn't died young, or had been wealthy and successful, would we care about the junk he wrote when he was a kid? I doubt it!

While all this makes sense, it could also be taken as somewhat functionalist or utilitarian as an explanation and should we say even a bit cynical, too, at that. Maybe there's just a time span it takes to seep into people's focus and become understood broadly enough. Right now we seem to have moved past Liszt, Brahms, and Wagner and are busy approaching the apex of the Belle Epoque, which makes me hopeful there is a Schoenberg renaissance waiting behind the corner.

More seriously, it might help, too, that we are in the privileged position of being able to approach Mahler from the vantage point of our own time. The riches in his works might open up better that way; after all, all works of genius are far ahead of their time, and Mahler was one of the greatest among those we've thus far had (and not just technically, mind you, but also philosophically -- think of what the high modernism of the '50s and then, rather paradoxically, also postmodernism has done to help Mahler reception). That might explain why all the Brittens, Prokofievs, Hindemiths, and Shostakoviches made it to the general consciousness first. I, too, made the journey to Mahler's music backwards, starting from contemporary composers and working my way backwards to him, including also the order in which I felt I "got" his symphonies (from the 9th to the 1st).

PT

[Cristian]

Here's some more fun data brought to you by Google fights

(all searches were done with quotes)

Johann Sebastian Bach   7960000 Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart   7840000 Ludwig van Beethoven    6650000 Richard Wagner    5470000 Johannes Brahms    4150000 Fredéric Chopin    3940000 Franz Schubert   3730000 Franz Liszt    3040000 Claude Debussy    2910000 Richard Strauss   2850000 Robert Schumann   2720000 Gustav Mahler   2360000 Antonin Dvorak   2110000 Georg Friedrich Haendel + GF Handel   2074000 Hector Berlioz    1650000 Igor Stravinsky   1510000 Arnold Schoenberg    894000 Sergei Rachmaninov + S Rachmaninoff   558000 Dimitri Shostakovich   110000

Not bad huh! Ahead of Dvorak, Haendel, Berlioz, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Rachmaninov, Shostakovich...

Strauss is cheating, of course! (There must be many people with that name!!) lol :-)

[Polarius T]

Arnold Schoenberg    894000
Sergei Rachmaninov + S Rachmaninoff   558000

And Schoenberg ahead of Rachmaninov! As said, we're finally moving on!

 

PT