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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: Michael on January 23, 2010, 12:17:22 AM
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Hi guys,
Well, I know this has just been done for M6, but never the less...what is everyone's top few favorite Mahler 9 recordings?
As for me...the 2007 Simon Rattle/Berlin Philharmonic M9 is my favorite so far. I also like the MTT/SFSO version a lot, especially in the Finale, although the recording quality leaves something to be desired. I have also listened to the Nott/BSO recording that came out recently, and I tend to think that it too is a goodie.
In Mahler 9, much as in the rest of the Mahler works I've heard, I tend to like the emotional side of the music. I have heard both extremes in Mahler 6--the emotionless Sanderling to the overraught Lenny. What are the extreme interpretations of this work--both the extremely emotional and the detached?
Thanks, and sorry to bother everyone. :)
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Easy.
Emotionally extreme - Lenny/BPO/DG Extreme, to the point of breaking the structure and balance of the music apart, unfortunately :-\.
Judd/GMSO(?) Again, the conductor nearly destroys the music by going for the extremes, especially in I ::).
Emotionally detached - Boulez/CSO/DG The first. movt. is very good, albeit some odd balances. But the rest is a dud :-[.
MTT/SFSO I think much of II and IV sounds detached, although I. is very fine :-X.
Solti/CSO The harder Solti tries, the more detached it sounds :P.
My favorites?
Lenny/RCO/DG, Ozawa/BSO/Philips, Levine/PO/RCA, Nott/BSO/Tudor, Chailly/RCO/Decca, Kubelik/BRSO/DG :D ;)
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There are tons of great ones, obviously. For me, none tops the live Karajan one, regardless of what minor faults it may or may not possess. It just has outrageous intensity from start to finish. For a single disc version, I really like the new Alan Gilbert one on BIS, regardless of whatever issues that it supposedly has as well. For a longer, two-disc version, I prefer the Chailly/Concertgebouw M9 (Decca) to the MTT/SFSO one. But again, there are lots of good ones. I do not, however, enjoy hearing the absurdly fast tempi; bad sound, and atrocious playing on the 1938 Bruno Walter M9 concert from Vienna. I can't even listen to it.
Next day: I thought of a couple more. I really like the Sinopoli/Dresden one (Profil), just for the gorgeous playing of the Staatskapelle, combined with Sinopoli's almost decadent sounding "interpretation" (hate that word). And for something that's truly completely different, the Eiji One (Exton) is certainly worth a listen.
Barry
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Next day: I thought of a couple more. I really like the Sinopoli/Dresden one (Profil), just for the gorgeous playing of the Staatskapelle, combined with Sinopoli's almost decadent sounding "interpretation" (hate that word). And for something that's truly completely different, the Eiji One (Exton) is certainly worth a listen.
Barry
I'd second the Oue but have not warmed up to the Sinopoli. It really is a strange performance ???.
John,
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(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41-SvkYTXeL._SS500_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61PDRTHQF7L._SS500_.jpg)
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My top M9...
IS STILL the Rattle/BPO/EMI (Japanese HQ pressing).
The new Oue M9 is immediately high on my list for it's strangeness and the sound.
The Karajan Gold and Bernstein DG are still epic titans of performance...hard to climb these hieghts.
MTT SFSO is on my list too for the pristine sound and playing of the orchestra.
Can't forget Nott's new M9 for the construction and planning.
There are so many other greats too...the latest Olson/Colorado Fest and the Horensteins.
ADMISSION: The Gilbert is growing on me.
--Todd
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....ADMISSION: The Gilbert is growing on me.
--Todd
Regarding Gilbert, I've quibbled about the balances, but the tempi throughout are the well chosen and the Adagio is very moving.
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Finally, someone who agrees with me about the Rattle! ;-) The beautiful sonics and rave reviews on iTunes led me to explore this one in June, and wow...what a moving performance, especially of the great Adagio.
MTT/SFSO...another great Adagio there, especially the beginning. Also, the C sharp minor viola and then later violin solos (5:14-6:33) are very moving. Here Tilson-Thomas holds back the forward movement, and I like that. In MTT's hands that passage is a cry--a longing for what is to be lost, where as for Rattle it is simply a statement with minimal emotion placed upon it.
Has anyone heard the Maazel/NYPO M9 released in July? This, along with the rest of the Maazel/NYPO Mahler recordings, is only available as an MP3 download, so if you're wondering why you haven't seen it in stores...that's why. LOL. I bought both Maazel's M6 and M9, and I'd say his first and last movements are the strongpoints of the performance. The Andante comodo is slower than any I've heard, but that just shows a different perspective of the work.
I am not as pleased with the second movement--there is no roughness in the opening Landler. The third movement does not stand out to me one way or the other, but it is missing the brash crunch in the solo violin passage a couple of minutes in, but that is pretty much common of everything I've heard after hearing Rattle/BPO.
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Finally, someone who agrees with me about the Rattle! ;-) The beautiful sonics and rave reviews on iTunes led me to explore this one in June, and wow...what a moving performance, especially of the great Adagio.
MTT/SFSO...another great Adagio there, especially the beginning. Also, the C sharp minor viola and then later violin solos (5:14-6:33) are very moving. Here Tilson-Thomas holds back the forward movement, and I like that. In MTT's hands that passage is a cry--a longing for what is to be lost, where as for Rattle it is simply a statement with minimal emotion placed upon it.
Has anyone heard the Maazel/NYPO M9 released in July? This, along with the rest of the Maazel/NYPO Mahler recordings, is only available as an MP3 download, so if you're wondering why you haven't seen it in stores...that's why. LOL. I bought both Maazel's M6 and M9, and I'd say his first and last movements are the strongpoints of the performance. The Andante comodo is slower than any I've heard, but that just shows a different perspective of the work.
I am not as pleased with the second movement--there is no roughness in the opening Landler. The third movement does not stand out to me one way or the other, but it is missing the brash crunch in the solo violin passage a couple of minutes in, but that is pretty much common of everything I've heard after hearing Rattle/BPO.
Michael,
I'm glad you agree on the Rattle...Mahlerian Tony Duggan also rates this performance to be be very high.
I'm thinking of downloading the NYPO Maazel M9 and M6 from iTunes one of these days, if anything it is aways great to hear the NYPO perform Mahler...but I do enjoy Maazel's Mahler.
Here a couple more recordings I should mention that deserve attention:
Gary Bertini, Tokyo Metropoliton Symphony Orch, Fontec
Seji Ozawa, Saito Kanien Orch, Sony
Benard Haitink, European Concert Youth Orch, Phillips
John Kim also mentioned the Kublik on DG...I really like that one too...I have it on LP and it sounds great.
--Todd
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More M9ths that are worth hearing:
Gielen/SWF/Intercord
Ludwig/LSO/Everest
Gatti/(and Italian Orch. whose name I forgot)
Solti/LSO/Decca
Haenchen/NRPO
Dohnanyi/CVLO/Decca
Abbado/VPO/DG
.....
John,
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For me, none tops the live Karajan one, regardless of what minor faults it may or may not possess. It just has outrageous intensity from start to finish.
Barry (or anyone else who might know):
I have the live HvK M9 in what I believe is its original CD release: 410 726-2 (P) 1984. I've heard rumors of a later "Karajan Gold" remastered version, but never actually seen it. Can you confirm whether a "Gold" remastering exists and, if so, whether it offers enough of an improvement to warrant purchase? Thanks.
EDIT: I just found that there is a "Gold" version of this. Now I just need to know how much better it is that the original issue.
James
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Well, if I ever get my hands on all of the iTunes gift cards that I received for Christmas, I will look into buying this and will let you know. It must have come out rather recently, though, so chances are it's pretty good.
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For me, none tops the live Karajan one, regardless of what minor faults it may or may not possess. It just has outrageous intensity from start to finish.
Barry (or anyone else who might know):
I have the live HvK M9 in what I believe is its original CD release: 410 726-2 (P) 1984. I've heard rumors of a later "Karajan Gold" remastered version, but never actually seen it. Can you confirm whether a "Gold" remastering exists and, if so, whether it offers enough of an improvement to warrant purchase? Thanks.
EDIT: I just found that there is a "Gold" version of this. Now I just need to know how much better it is that the original issue.
James
The Karajan Gold version is MUCH better in sound. More open, sharper, more ambiance, more details, etc. Tam tam and timpani are stronger and have more presence too. On the negative side, it reduces the 'harshness' a bit that made the original recording sound so powerful as a result of these improvements.
...only if Karajan's M9th(s) were my favorites :-\ :-[.
John,
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The Karajan Gold version is MUCH better in sound. More open, sharper, more ambiance, more details, etc. Tam tam and timpani are stronger and have more presence too.
I just acquired the "Gold" version of the HvK 1982 live M9 and WOW! John's exactly right—I don't think I've ever heard a more dramatic difference in a remastering job. Of course, this isn't just a remastering, but a remix as well, which makes for an even bigger difference. The harshness is gone and the added transparency and clarity are amazing. For anyone who treasures this particular performance and still has the older 1984 "pre-Gold" release, I would say replace it with the "Gold" version immediately, even if you have to pay full price—it's that much better!
James
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Uncanny resemblance between these two conductors and CD covers, with both performing M9 live with the same orchestra
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5173EVG2HJL._SS500_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51p6AYR42vL._SS500_.jpg)
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But for me, it is the Oue's version that reigns over all other recordings for now. Todd, Barry, and I discussed about the recording numerous times, so please refer to the old postings for details.
John,
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Chailly/RCO
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I've spent a bit of time listening to the Lenny/RCO M9 and I must say...I really like it! It's too early for me to say definitively yet but I think that one might be my favorite Bernstein M9th.
However...that said...it seems in the Finale as though the sonic characteristics change a couple of times. I've only listened once, and I hope that is not the case...because honestly it was quite noticeable and distracting from the mood of the performance.
Any thoughts, John or anyone else who is a little more familiar with this recording?
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I've spent a bit of time listening to the Lenny/RCO M9 and I must say...I really like it! It's too early for me to say definitively yet but I think that one might be my favorite Bernstein M9th.
However...that said...it seems in the Finale as though the sonic characteristics change a couple of times. I've only listened once, and I hope that is not the case...because honestly it was quite noticeable and distracting from the mood of the performance.
Any thoughts, John or anyone else who is a little more familiar with this recording?
Michael,
As far as I can recall, there were no such sonic glitches. But perhaps I should return to the recording and listen carefully.
Can you give me the spots in IV you found problematic?
John,
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Hi John,
Well, on second listening, everything sounds okay. I probably had my volume too high and admittedly I was not in the best of listening environments. Also, I'm having a few problems with headphones, so...
Take care,
Michael
P.S. Is it me or is the Finale really slow?
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P.S. Is it me or is the Finale really slow?
Its is SLOOWWW. But it is INTENSELY slow, so every bar, every measure counts in Lenny's reading.
So, it doesn't matter and doesn't bother me at all that it's SO slow.
John,
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It's amazing because if you look at the score there aren't all that many pages for the Adagio. You would think the movt. will be all done within just 10 min. ::)
John,
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Riccardo Chailly & RCO's recording of the ninth is good and his complete Mahler symphonies (in box set) are very well done overall. (In fact they make up my favorites for many of the symphonies.) My favorite has Simon Rattle with the Berlin Philharmonic though for No. 9.
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single disc: Alan Gilbert/RSPO (BIS)
2 disc set: "live" Karajan, 1981
bootleg: Bernstein/B.S.O./Tangelwood, 1979
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single disc: Alan Gilbert/RSPO (BIS)
2 disc set: "live" Karajan, 1981
bootleg: Bernstein/B.S.O./Tangelwood, 1979
You have reminded me to return to the Gilbert M9...
His M3/NYPO is out of this world...it has become one of my favorite recordings of Mahler ever.
--Todd
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A couple other recordings not yet mentioned that I enjoy are:
Kurt Sanderling / BBC
Barenboim / Staatskapelle Berlin
John
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I gave Bernstein RCO a spin yesterday - I have to say it is a good disc, but the intonation of the lower brass just almost spoils the deal for me. And it is not just isolated to one or two spots - it is pretty consistently out. Anybody else bothered by this?
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I gave Bernstein RCO a spin yesterday - I have to say it is a good disc, but the intonation of the lower brass just almost spoils the deal for me. And it is not just isolated to one or two spots - it is pretty consistently out. Anybody else bothered by this?
The brass sounds fine to my ears, but it may be the limitations of the CD mastering that effects the timbre of the orchestra...the vinyl sounds incredible, the RCO sound fantastic. It is just fantastic. I wish I knew how to make a needle drop!
--Todd
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I don't have the trouble with the brass. I think the RCO brass always sounds a little too cultivated and cautious or even reticent. What concerns me though is the less than ideal recording quality which is rather shrill and lacks bass. I picked up a French remastered version of this recording at a used CD store and can attest this one sounds better than the US release or any other version I've encountered.
John
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There is an issue in the Finale quacks a wrong note near the first climax in the Finale...terrible.
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I listened to my LPs of Haitink/RCO/Philips M9th recording in a along time.
On the vinyls it sounds awesome!
None of the CD transfers so far can match the deep bass, the wide dynamic contrast, color and details of the original recording.
On the LPs this one definitely joins the list of my top M9ths.
John,
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I listened to my LPs of Haitink/RCO/Philips M9th recording in a along time.
On the vinyls it sounds awesome!
None of the CD transfers so far can match the deep bass, the wide dynamic contrast, color and details of the original recording.
On the LPs this one definitely joins the list of my top M9ths.
John,
This is awesome to hear! I acquired this LP set some time ago, but haven't listened to it yet. I felt the Phillips CD really sounded bad, and was hoping the LPs would live up to the classic status of this release.
--Todd
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Todd,
I sent an email to PentaTone urging them to remaster the recording in SACD format.
I have PentaTone Haitink M5th SACD and thought they had done a remarkable job of remastering.
John,
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I really like the Gilbert and Karajan live, and will mention another which has a similar live intensity: Tokyo MSO/Bertini.
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I really like the Gilbert and Karajan live, and will mention another which has a similar live intensity: Tokyo MSO/Bertini.
I LOVE the Tokyo MSO/Bertini M9...powerful all the way through, with perhaps the best second movement I have ever heard.
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Todd,
I sent an email to PentaTone urging them to remaster the recording in SACD format.
I have PentaTone Haitink M5th SACD and thought they had done a remarkable job of remastering.
John,
I have to wholeheartedly agree regarding the PentaTone M5/Haitink release. Incredible job.
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I must tell you, I have LPs of Haitink, Levine, Tennstedt and Karajan (analogue) M9ths and they all sound MILES better than the CD releases. What had been diminished in these CDs are the dynamic contrast & range, details, highs & lows in the frequency range. When are they going to get them right?
John,
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Is the Haitink M9 under discussion the same one on the Mahler150.com website?
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Is the Haitink M9 under discussion the same one on the Mahler150.com website?
Yes. Haitink's 1969 studio recording with RCO on Philips label.
John,
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After Yanks tossed a terrible loss over to the Texans tonight, I did an A-B comparison of the Haitink M9th LP vs. CD (the one that is coupled with his DLVDE). After the 1st movt. was barely over I almost threw the CD out of a window. >:( >:(
There simply is no comparison - the CD sucks, the LP lives!
John,
P.S. Why don't they just play the LP on a good turntable and transfer it to CD, instead of remastering the tapes over and over again??
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Because it's the inherit distortion of vinyl that makes it sound good to you - the radical rolling off of the high end. However, you can easily obtain a turntable that has a built-in CD burner. That just might do the trick.
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Because it's the inherit distortion of vinyl that makes it sound good to you - the radical rolling off of the high end. However, you can easily obtain a turntable that has a built-in CD burner. That just might do the trick.
I think it is the CD whose frequency spectrum rolls off at the high end, if I am not mistaken.
Yes, when I still had a turntable and an amp that takes the signal, I used to transfer from LPs to CDRs. Unfortunately, I switched to a new amp long ago. Since then, my turntable has been sitting in the dust.
John
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Hi
Just read through this thread, and starts to wonder what is wrong with me. None of my top ninth's is mentioned :(
Among my more than 35 versions, I always find the performances most satisfying to be:
Neumann/Leipzig/-69 Simply fantastic. No quibble, they just play from A to Z
Pesek/Liverpool/-91 Perfect recorded and played, and from Liverpool :o
Horenstein/LSO/-66 Scrappy playing in the middle mvts., but what a show. Live recording.
Steen
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Hi
Just read through this thread, and starts to wonder what is wrong with me. None of my top ninth's is mentioned :(
Among my more than 35 versions, I always find the performances most satisfying to be:
Neumann/Leipzig/-69 Simply fantastic. No quibble, they just play from A to Z
Pesek/Liverpool/-91 Perfect recorded and played, and from Liverpool :o
Horenstein/LSO/-66 Scrappy playing in the middle mvts., but what a show. Live recording.
Steen
As for the Horenstein, the 1966 performance from the Music and Arts CD (a different performance from the BBC Legends disk) is still among my top choices. I mentioned it in another M9 thread, but failed to remember to mention it in this thread! I also feel the Horenstein/ASO/Music and Arts performance worth having...another mind blower.
--Todd
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Walter stereo as well as Vienna 1938. Many others, too.
On CD versus LP, the Redbook CD format is hampered by jitter and mechanical limitations as well as the 44.1 K sampling rate. The best CD players, often expensive, minimize and sometimes overcome the medium's limitations. I have found the Japanese SHM version of the Bernstein DGG series to be astonishingly good in sound.
Many are advocating computer systems where the digital stream is freed from the mechanical disturbances of the silver disc and and its playback.
The Rega Apollo and I believe the more expensive Saturn process the digital stream through a RAM circuit that takes a few second to load, but delivers more than usually pleasing presentation of CD sound.
I have invested in a more pricey player (Cary 306 pro) that seems remarkably good to me.
I just sampled the much praised Haitink Concertgebouw M9 on CD (Deryk Cooke found it a major achievement), and the sound stage and balance are quite good. I haven't had a chance to compare CD with the LP version yet. Just a brief commentary on CD sound challenges.
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Hi
Just read through this thread, and starts to wonder what is wrong with me. None of my top ninth's is mentioned :(
Among my more than 35 versions, I always find the performances most satisfying to be:
Neumann/Leipzig/-69 Simply fantastic. No quibble, they just play from A to Z
Pesek/Liverpool/-91 Perfect recorded and played, and from Liverpool :o
Horenstein/LSO/-66 Scrappy playing in the middle mvts., but what a show. Live recording.
Steen
I recently acquired the Pesek/Liverpool and agree that this is a very fine performance. My 2¢...
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I found Gielen/SWR M9 very interesting an disturbing. 1rst mt dark ,frozen, pessimist,with terrifying brass tone; an atmosphere of nightmare continuing in the 2nd,sad, lent an heavy. the final going yet to pale light.
sorry for my mistakes
Mathilde
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I found Gielen/SWR M9 very interesting an disturbing. 1rst mt dark ,frozen, pessimist,with terrifying brass tone; an atmosphere of nightmare continuing in the 2nd,sad, lent an heavy. the final going yet to pale light.
sorry for my mistakes
Mathilde
The problem with Gielen's M9th (his 2nd recording) is the orchestra in the 1st movt. It sounds as if there wasn't enough rehearsal time before the recording. There are places here where the brass players had difficulty with intonation. Also, some instruments are inaudible at various spots. The recording is shallow and lack details which doesn't help.
John,
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Bernard Haitink's 1987 Kerstmatinee live performance has an uncanny, harrowing intensity not to be found in any of his studio recordings. Haitink is always best live, and this was recorded just before he left RCO after a series of conflicts with the management. Haitink's leavetaking is mirrored in the Adagio in the most poignant way.
/Bengt
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Bernard Haitink's 1987 Kerstmatinee live performance has an uncanny, harrowing intensity not to be found in any of his studio recordings. Haitink is always best live, and this was recorded just before he left RCO after a series of conflicts with the management. Haitink's leavetaking is mirrored in the Adagio in the most poignant way.
/Bengt
I also like this one. But I wish the sound were better :-\. For one thing, I can't hear tam tam at the great climax in I. The dynamic range is also somewhat mitigated.
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Hi Michael,
Well, its a very hard and interesting question !! I have personally listened to not all recorded versions, BUT, we all have our distinct favourites, but my "desert island disc" on Mahler"s ninth would have to be Bernsteins"s 1960"s NYPO on CBS. (the later DGG just doesnt do it for me) I used to love the cover of the black Raven on the LP box set ! But the playing is spot-on I think,the basses just transport me. I know Lenny (and I miss him terribly) is often criticised for being "over the top" but this version is always the best for me ( as his Mahler 8th too!!!,,,CBS)
Regards Jack
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I'm so tired of this topic. I've decided I hate the 9th, and am going to put it away for at least five years. :P
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Hmm, I'll tjink you'll develop abstinence like a coke addict without coke Lol
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I'm so tired of this topic. I've decided I hate the 9th, and am going to put it away for at least five years. :P
Five years is considered the default time period for giving a particular work a "time-out" until it is played again, amongst musicians, in case some of you didn't know.
With all the posts here about M7 recordings as well, can that work be far behind?
IMHO, the least-discussed symphonies here at the Gustav Mahler Board are M1, M5, and M6. M3 is not far behind.
Wade
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I'd like to add 'Das Lied' to that list, if you can agree to consider it to be a symphony.
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There have been many threads on M6 and Das lied! Use the search feature and see 8) :-*
--Todd
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John Kim wrote, way back in Sept
I listened to my LPs of Haitink/RCO/Philips M9th recording in a along time.
The Haitink/RCO vinyls were the first ones I listened to Mahler on. So I have a sentimental attachment. BUT...I recently got the Philips 2fer with M9 and Das Lied/Baker, and the Ninth sounded glorious to me Haitink was so connected to the music: not too much, not too little, just right.
I also heard Rattle and the BSO do it live in Carnegie for my 60th birthday. I was ready to die and go to heaven by the end (which was followed by 2 minutes of audience silence). Come to think of it, I was sitting in the very last seat in the balcony, so I guess I was in heaven. But Carnegie's sound was heaven even way up there.
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Here's a funny story to tell: I really "treasure" a performance of M9 that John Kim and I went to at S.F.'s Davies Hall, with Seiji Ozawa conducting the Saito Kinen Orch. from Japan. That's because the mostly Asian audience was absolutely still and silent from start to finish (obviously, the performance was real good too). There was also a good 30 to 60 seconds of silence before the audience began applauding as well. The flip side to this story is this: . .
. . John Kim has a "burn job" of an M9 that he really likes, with Edo DeWaart and the S.F.S.O. from sometime in the latter '80s. I was at one of those performances and hated it, simply because the audience was a bunch of pigs that night: people talking; shuffling about; coughing, blowing their noses; opening wrappers, you name it! The audience totally ruined that performance for me. I really should have walked out because I wasn't able to enjoy any of it. Because of my positive experince with Ozawa/SKO, I'm retiring the 9th in regards to live performances.
Lack of audience participation is hugely important with Mahler 9.