Author Topic: Honeck / Pittburgh's Hammerschlag  (Read 20926 times)

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Honeck / Pittburgh's Hammerschlag
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2012, 04:43:52 AM »
Well, I can't wait for the Exton CD to come out. Anyway, regarding the five hammer-stroke business, many people confuse various bass drum whacks and tam-tam smashes as actually being hammer-strokes. Anyway, I've got to run.

Offline Roffe

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Re: Honeck / Pittburgh's Hammerschlag
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2012, 04:50:56 AM »
Wade wrote:
The next step to assure compliance against all such offenders might be to require all concert patrons to check such devices at the cloak room before entering the concert hall.  Could you imagine the logistical and traffic nightmare pre- and post-concert that would create?  And not to mention the likelihood of possible theft and loss.


Good idea. However, as you say, the logistics might become somewhat difficult. We'd probably have to show up an hour b4 the concert starts. We'll have to do with the verbal reminder.

Roffe

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Honeck / Pittburgh's Hammerschlag
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2012, 02:58:14 AM »
Here's a Youtube excerpt with Honeck himself discussing the hammer-strokes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=600ZUWMNSh8

He states that he was going to use three. Maybe there were none!?!
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 03:06:10 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline James Meckley

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Re: Honeck / Pittburgh's Hammerschlag
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2012, 05:08:55 AM »
Most puzzling. So Manfred Honeck planned to use three blows (I wonder when that interview was given), yet we have reliable contemporaneous reports of five in one concert and two in another. I trust the reviewer and buffato, of course; it's hard to confuse a bass drum whack with a hammer blow when you're sitting in the concert hall and have visual confirmation of exactly what produced the sound you just heard.

Mr. Honeck is booked to conduct a concert at the Aspen Music Festival next month (Brahms PC #2 and Ein Heldenleben) and I know two students who'll be in his orchestra. I've asked them to gently inquire as to why his thinking on the hammer blow issue changed and, naturally, how many blows we can expect in the official recording. Report to follow.

James
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
Henry Krehbiel, New York Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Honeck / Pittburgh's Hammerschlag
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2012, 05:32:48 AM »
Makes sense. But that's also assuming that - as you implied - the 'reporters' were keeping a close visual check. There are two spots in the finale where a forte bass drum 'thud' is doubled by a forte or fortissimo tam-tam stroke. One of those is about a minute or 90 seconds after the second hammer-stroke, and the other is shortly after the 'false victory parade' passage - just shortly before where the third hammer-stroke originally was (and sometimes gets reinstated).

Also, if the snare drummer - with the snares switched off (as they should be) - places a sharp accent at the beginning of his roll that's located at the very spot where the third hammer-stroke originally was, it can sound as though somebody picked up the hammer and struck it (only a bit softer, obviously). In other words, there's plenty that one could get aurally confused by.

Offline James Meckley

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Re: Honeck / Pittburgh's Hammerschlag
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2012, 06:17:04 AM »
Certainly one doesn't always see a snare drummer begin a roll or a tam tam player strike his instrument when it's at or below waist level, but a fully-grown adult raising a big wooden mallet well above his head and bringing it down forcefully onto a large wooden box—as was done in the video—is pretty hard to miss, especially for a Mahler enthusiast keeping watch for such an event. Just my take.

James
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
Henry Krehbiel, New York Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Honeck / Pittburgh's Hammerschlag
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2012, 12:40:13 AM »
Agreed! Thoroughly agreed.

Offline buffoto

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Re: Honeck / Pittburgh's Hammerschlag
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2012, 01:17:32 PM »
Certainly one doesn't always see a snare drummer begin a roll or a tam tam player strike his instrument when it's at or below waist level, but a fully-grown adult raising a big wooden mallet well above his head and bringing it down forcefully onto a large wooden box—as was done in the video—is pretty hard to miss, especially for a Mahler enthusiast keeping watch for such an event. Just my take.

James
As mentioned in my earlier post, during the Saturday night performance there were only two hammer blows, and they occurred at the usual points in the score where I've heard them sounded a hundred times before. We were sitting in the balcony and I witnessed this with my own eyes and ears. It was actually hard to take your eyes off of the hammerschlag during any time in the performance as it rested so ominously in back of and to the left of the orchestra (from the audiences perspective). Knowing when the blows were going to occur, I trained my binoculars on the action as it happened. Believe me, even if you weren't looking directly at the performer and didn't see it happen, the tremendous sound the blows produced were so radically different from the sounds produced by the bass drum, tam-tam and tympani that there could be no mistake: there were only two strikes on that night.   

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Honeck / Pittburgh's Hammerschlag
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2012, 07:50:39 PM »
Thank you Buffoto. And please forgive me for implying that perhaps you or anybody may have confused events. I get a bit carried away because - for me, anyway - I'd rather go to go to a truly great M6 that had zero hammer-strokes than a mediocre one that had ten. Thus, I tend to NOT to take the issue too seriously (I'm more sensitive about movement order). I'm just happy that you got to see/hear such a great performance. Seriously.

Barry

Offline waderice

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Re: Honeck / Pittburgh's Hammerschlag
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2012, 09:01:50 PM »
This entire issue of the number of Hammerschlagen makes me wonder if some conductor someday will make alternate recordings of the finale with two, another with five, and a third one with three.  Not that any conductor would want to confuse the issue, but to clarify Mahler's thoughts at various times throughout the work's gestation.  What think the rest of you?

Wade

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Honeck / Pittburgh's Hammerschlag
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2012, 02:42:13 AM »
Well then, the obvious solution would be an MMO (Music Music One) issue of the finale in which you, the participant, provide your own hammer-strokes!!!!   8)

Also, there should be a mail order Heath Kit, build-your-own hammer and wooden box kit. Recycled lumber yards might be a good source also.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 02:44:33 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline James Meckley

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Re: Honeck / Pittburgh's Hammerschlag
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2012, 03:29:23 AM »
This entire issue of the number of Hammerschlagen makes me wonder if some conductor someday will make alternate recordings of the finale with two, another with five, and a third one with three.  Not that any conductor would want to confuse the issue, but to clarify Mahler's thoughts at various times throughout the work's gestation.  What think the rest of you?

I'd be content with a properly-done recording of the three-hammer-blow version, but so far none has been forthcoming. Of course Ben Zander made a recording of the Sixth (Telarc, 2002) which includes two versions of the Finale, one with two hammer blows and one with three. Much was made of his having altered the orchestration in the region of the third blow in order to be true to Mahler's original intent. Unfortunately this was a halfway measure, at best. This has already been discussed here at length, but to briefly summarize:

There were three published versions of the Sixth Symphony during Mahler's lifetime, all released within the span of a year. Let's call them versions A, B, and C.

Version A (early 1906) included three hammer blows, a middle-movement order of Scherzo–Andante, and an orchestration throughout that is quite different from the one we're used to hearing. This is the version currently available from Eulenburg (Redlich, 1968).

Version B (mid-1906) was the same as Version A except that the middle movements are now Andante–Scherzo.

Version C (late 1906) had the third hammer blow removed and the orchestration revised in all four movements including the region where the third hammer blow had been. This is the version represented by the current Critical Edition (Kubik, 2010) and is what we're used to hearing in modern performances and recordings.

What Mr. Zander did in his three-hammer-blow Finale was restore the original orchestration from version A only in the region around the third hammer blow, retaining the revised orchestration from Version C throughout the rest of the symphony, thereby creating a hybrid version Mahler never imagined.

Someone, sometime should record the real three-hammer-blow Sixth to be found in Version A: the original orchestration of the entire symphony including all three hammer blows.

I have no particular interest in hearing a five-hammer-blow version. The two extra blows (at measures 9 and 530) existed only as blue pencil marks in an early draft of the score. They were eliminated well before the first publication of the work and were never heard by anyone. Knowing where they were in the score is enough for me. Or, as Barry suggests, I can bang my fist on the table at those two spots while the recording plays and use my imagination. It would be the wrong orchestration in any case.

James
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
Henry Krehbiel, New York Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler

Offline waderice

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Re: Honeck / Pittburgh's Hammerschlag
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2012, 10:50:09 AM »
There should be a mail order Heath Kit, build-your-own hammer and wooden box kit. Recycled lumber yards might be a good source also.
Maybe this might be a first where either Lowe's or Home Depot participate in a project for the arts!  ;D

Wade

Offline hrandall

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Re: Honeck / Pittburgh's Hammerschlag
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2012, 02:14:03 AM »
Well then, the obvious solution would be an MMO (Music Music One) issue of the finale in which you, the participant, provide your own hammer-strokes!!!!   8)

Also, there should be a mail order Heath Kit, build-your-own hammer and wooden box kit. Recycled lumber yards might be a good source also.

I'm sensing an official Gustav Mahler Board competition coming up! Video with sound required for entry! Blueprints and/or materials list required for all entries....

Cheers!
Herb

Offline Sturmisch Bewegt

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Re: Honeck / Pittburgh's Hammerschlag
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2012, 08:01:13 AM »
Well then, the obvious solution would be an MMO (Music Music One) issue of the finale in which you, the participant, provide your own hammer-strokes!!!!   8)

Also, there should be a mail order Heath Kit, build-your-own hammer and wooden box kit. Recycled lumber yards might be a good source also.

I'm sensing an official Gustav Mahler Board competition coming up! Video with sound required for entry! Blueprints and/or materials list required for all entries....

Cheers!
Herb

Beware the cheaters!

http://www.fstjpercussion.com/en/products/19-wind-machine-mahler-hammer.html

 

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