M2 and more

[merlin]

In many ways, I am a relative beginner with respect to Mahler.  I am on my third traversal of his symphonies, the previous one a bit over three years ago, and have read a biography.

But this time, I am far more captivated and moved.  My current cycle has already gone on more than two months.  I have listened to the works several times, and M2, 3, 6, and 9 about a dozen.

I have little or no interest in reading interpretations of what the music might mean, and am not drawn to following a score nor timings of various movements. What engages me are my responses whilst listening to the music, whether frissons, emotions, thoughts, or images. 

So, having listened to my three versions of M2 over the past three evenings, decided to rate them, and ask for suggestions of others that might be as enjoyable.

Sound quality:  Fischer/BFO = 10 (SACD 2-channel), Bernstein/DG = 8/9, Bertini = 7/8.

Interpretation:  Fischer = 8, Bertini = 9, Bernstein = far more than 10.  As far as I am concerned, his are head and shoulders above any others, for all of the symphonies.

Yeah, I know he does not follow the letter of the scores, but for me, this is completely irrelevant.  His versions move me more deeply than any others I have heard, and I can easily imagine that this is how Mahler would perform these works today.

But I am certainly open to listening to other interpretations.

On another note, with the occasional exception of Der Abschied, I do not care for his songs.  I also abhor opera, other than perhaps a few arias.

Thanks for reading, and I hope you will be motivated to suggest other versions of M2, and the others, that might be as moving and captivating as Bernstein.

N.B. Here are versions I have listened to, in addition to M2. 
Bernstein M1-M7/DG remastered
Bertini M1-M9+M10 Adagio
M3 - Horenstein
M4 - Maazel
M6 - Barbirolli, Zinman (SACD)
M8 - Bernstein/ LSO Sony, Wit
M9 - Bernstein/BPO
Several versions of M10, e.g. Chailly, Litton, Slatkin, but other than the Adagio, am not at all interested.  I would rather listen to Mahler, and not someone else's conception of what he might have written.

[Constantin]

Merlin,

Just my own opinion, but I think you would be missing a lot, not to consider various perspectives on what the music might mean.
In several of his symphonies, and of course in his songs, Mahler used words.

And words mean something!

No one is entitled to pronounce EXACTLY what each musical piece  means--and that is the probable reason why Mahler discouraged the use of titles for his symphonies.

He spoke at least two languages: the languages of words and of music, and both of them contribute to the "message" of his works.

It's difficult, and perhaps dangerous, to speak of how his music affects us personally.  But we can remain open to the opinions that others are willing to share about how the music affects them.   It's not easy and it's risky to bare our souls, but please don't "write off" curiosity about what Mahler's music means!   
This is something that sets Mahler apart from most other composers.

[waderice]

Merlin, Constantin has offered some valuable advice.  Look into the words Mahler put in his works, especially those exclusive of M8, though M8 is his Beethovenian "Ode to Joy".  Reread your Mahler bio.  You don't state which one you read, but you don't necessarily have to go to the most thorough and costly one available, the one by Henri Louis de la Grange.  The more you read about Mahler, the more you will delve into the psyche of the man.

You also say that you prefer Bernstein's way with the Mahler symphonies.  I agree with you too.  But you also need to hear his earlier 1963 Columbia/Sony account, which for me, is the "Desert Isle" performance I would take with me, if I were "exiled" to such a place.  The sound may be dated, but Bernstein totally lets himself go in this performance.  Also, if you're lucky to come across a copy somewhere, his 1970 account with the Cleveland Orchestra offers a good combination of the 1963 account and his later 1972 account with the LSO.  Fischer offers the account I find totally different from the "heart-on-sleeve" approach, with great sound.  Another account with great sound and "heart-on-sleeve" is the Slatkin/St. Louis performance, which I definitely recommend you get on Telarc SACD, not the regular CD version.

Wade

[merlin]

Thanks to both of you for the feedback, which I will certainly take into account.  I do find, however, that I prefer works of art to stand on their own, and if I read someone else's take on them, it influences my own.

Wade, IIRC all of the Bernstein/NYPO cycle has been released by Sony on DSD remastered SACDs.  Do you have any listening experience with these, in terms of SQ?  Obviously they are rather expensive, and available only from Japan.

[mahlerei]

Merlin

I agree, one ought to be wary of what Mahler's works  'mean' - or, more accurately,what others think they mean - but one also needs to remember that art is not created in a vacuum. Mahler wasn't shy when it came to writing about his music and, in the case of M2 and M8, there is a very specific text and context that can't be ignored. As always, one has to be prepared to separate the wheat from the chaff, which is difficult in an artist as 'autobiographical' as Mahler was.

As for M10, it depends on whether you think it's an 'almost is' or a 'never was'. Conductors such as Bernstein and Abbadao made their position very clear, but others have certainly persuaded me that there is quite a bit of Mahler in these elaborations. Rattle's Bournemouth version of the Cooke score is certainly worth hearing, if only tp help you decide where you stand on this fascinating piece. I also have Mark Wigglesworth's Melbourne account, which I hope to listen to soon.

As for M2s, there are so many fine versions available. Among recent ones I would recommend David Zinman (Sony-BMG), Jonathan Nott (Tudor), Simone Young (Oehms) and James Levine's 1989 Salzburg performance on Orfeo. All have something to say about this great score. On Blu-ray Riccardo Chailly's version from the 2011 Leipzig Mahlerfest is hugely impressive and would be my choice on video.

It's a most rewarding journey, and I envy you starting out - as I did more than 40 years ago.

[Roffe]

As for M10, it depends on whether you think it's an 'almost is' or a 'never was'.

Deryck Cooke wrote: 'Mahler's actual music, even in its unperfected and unelaborated state, has such significance, strength, and beauty, that it dwarfs into insignificance the momentary uncertainities about notation and the occasional subsidiary pastiche composing... After all, the thematic line throughout, and something like 90% of the counterpoint and harmony, are pure Mahler, and vintage Mahler at that'.

Personally, I think that the finale of M10 is soooo beautiful, that I wouldn't be without it.

Roffe

[waderice]

Wade, IIRC all of the Bernstein/NYPO cycle has been released by Sony on DSD remastered SACDs.  Do you have any listening experience with these, in terms of SQ?  Obviously they are rather expensive, and available only from Japan.

The listening experience I have with the complete Bernstein/NYPO Columbia/Sony cycle on CD is with the remastered one on Carnegie Hall (U.S. domestic issue), plus that of M2 on SACD from Japan.  I got this one on SACD since I said it was my desert isle performance, and came away with finding little difference in sound quality.  Presumably this is because of the recording having originally been made analog, on the then-best available tape formulation in 1963.  And, like Barry Guerrero, I found that the organ in the remastering by Andreas K. Myer comes out weaker, than in the earlier mastering.  Disappointing, considering the cost.  The only other one I may buy in SACD issue from this cycle would be M8.  Depending on where you reside, the Carnegie Hall cycle comes as a bargain, but there's considerably more Mahler recorded by Bernstein on Columbia/Sony that should have been issued with this set, to make it a complete Columbia-Sony/Mahler-Bernstein set, including all of the orchestral songs.  If you want to see what's missing, look at my review at Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Complete-Symphonies-Carnegie-Presents/product-reviews/B001TIQT98/ref=cm_cr_pr_top_recent?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

Wade

[merlin]

Hi Wade.  I jsut finished listening to the M8/Sony Japan SACD in 2-channel.  The SQ is excellent, especially since the recording was made in 1966, but it clearly is balanced to the treble side.  Therefore, some of the voices are glassy, and there is a definite lack of bass compared with other discs.

As for the performance, I cannot say.  It is not a work I will listen to again anytime soon, because I much prefer orchestral pieces.

[waderice]

Hi Wade.  I jsut finished listening to the M8/Sony Japan SACD in 2-channel.  The SQ is excellent, especially since the recording was made in 1966, but it definitely is balanced to the treble side.  Therefore, some of the voices are glassy, and there is a lack of bass compared with other discs.

As for the performance, I cannot say.  It is not a work I will listen to again anytime soon, because I much prefer orchestral pieces.

Merlin,

Thanks for your report on the SACD.  If I recall correctly, listening a good while ago to the regular CD remastering by Andreas K. Meyer, the sound was glassy as you describe.  There are those who prefer this Bernstein performance to Solti's later CSO/Vienna State Opera Chorus Decca issue, and in some ways, I agree with them.  Bernstein lets the music flow, whereas Solti tends to force the music.  Interestingly, both performances can fit onto a single CD.

I don't know about your knowledge of Latin or German, but don't let that deter you from listening further to the work.  Yes, it also took me a good while to learn to appreciate the work, and I had the privilege to be involved in a performance of it here in DC in 1974.  It is a piece that unfortunately lets the detractors get in the way of enjoying some really sublime music.  Also, I had the opportunity in 2010 to see the building in Munich where the work was first performed in 1910, which has since unfortunately been transformed into a transportation museum, of all things.

Wade