Author Topic: Rattle M9 at Carnagie  (Read 10659 times)

Offline Jot N. Tittle

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Re: Rattle M9 at Carnagie
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2007, 02:32:46 AM »
I recall reading that the drum Mahler heard was most likely a muffled snare drum. Anyone else read that?

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Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Rattle M9 at Carnagie
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2007, 08:41:01 AM »
I don't buy that. Of all people, Mahler was not someone who would have mistaken a bass drum for a muffled snare drum. Most attempts at muting a snare drum are very ineffective anyway, which is one reason why modern snare drums have the potential to simply switch the snares off. I'm not saying that that's a wrong statement. But I do think it's rather unlikely.

Offline Jot N. Tittle

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Re: Rattle M9 at Carnagie
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2007, 07:53:54 PM »
A little searching led me to my sources on the drum matter in M10.

First, there is Clinton Carpenter, who wrote, concerning the drum stroke:

"To get a proper background for this music, one must go to Alma Mahler’s book Gustav Mahler: Memories and Letters. Using the Basil Creighton translation of 1946, published by the Viking Press of New York, there appears on pages 122 and 123 an incident concerning a funeral. 'It was the funeral cortège of a fireman. . . . From our eleventh floor window, we could only guess what [the master of ceremonies] said. There was a brief pause and a roll of muffled drums, followed by a dead silence ... [Mahler’s] face was streaming with tears. The brief roll of the muffled drums impressed him so deeply that he used it in the Tenth Symphony.' . . . If the drum beats in the symphony are to echo this episode, then the tremendous whacks that are always heard are completely out of place. A drum stroke on a muffled drum eleven floors up doesn't sound as it does in the Morris record, or any other performance. . . . As indicated in Alma’s book, these beats should be felt rather than heard, which may be somewhat of a problem for the conductor. But even if they are only played softly, these places would be 100% better than at the present."
[From Naturlaut, The Quarterly Newsletter of The Chicago Mahlerites, Vol. 2, No. 4 (March 2004), emphasis mine.]

The fireman being mourned was Charles W. Kruger, Deputy Chief of the Fire Department of the City of New York, reportedly beloved by all who knew him. He had led his men into the basement of a burning building and had fallen into a pit filled with water; attempts to rescue him failed, and he slipped from their grasp with the words, "I'm going, boys!" This was reported in the New York newspapers, and the entire city mourned. [See Zoltan Roman, Gustav Mahler's American Years, 1907-1911: A Documentary History,, p.88; and Jerry Bruck's notes to the Colorado MahlerFest Orchestra performance of M10, with CD issued by the Colorado MahlerFest.]

Robert Olson, writing in the booklet accompanying the Colorado MahlerFest recording of the Wheeler version of M10, reports that "[Jerry] Bruck queried the New York City fire department historian, who explained that it has long been the practice for such occasions to play a 'tattoo' on the muffled drum, i.e., a short roll. Heard at Mahler's upper-story window, this short roll could very well have sounded like one stroke. Furthermore, Mahler does not specify a dynamic marking for these strokes, only sforzando, so the various 'completors' have used their own judgements, and they are quite different." [Emphasis mine.]

Now, Barry, when you finish your version, how will you treat the drum strokes?

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Offline Leo K

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Re: Rattle M9 at Carnagie
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2007, 02:38:52 AM »
Jot, thanks for pulling out that interesting info on the fireman...imagine all the people this fireman has affected and to what he has given to the world...not only did he save lives, but his funeral inspired a great composer to compose into his score a wonderful instrumental idea that has given many much joy and much to think about!

--Leo

Offline stillivor

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M10 drum
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2007, 01:48:48 PM »
  Just so this interesting discussion doesn't get lost in a M9 thread.

  What does the score say about those drum effects in M10?

  If they are not rolls, maybe that's because, whatever the drummer of the fire dept. did, what M. heard 11 floors up was a tap/bang? A "stroke" is the way it's put in a trans. of Alma's Memories,according to the notes to Rattle's 1st recording.


  It's the centenary of the incident next 16th feb. A day to play a 10th.


   Ivor

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Rattle M9 at Carnagie
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2007, 06:10:09 AM »
"Now, Barry, when you finish your version, how will you treat the drum strokes?"

Actually, when Chailly did the 10th with the Concertgebouw, he had his bass drum player do a very short roll. In actuality, it would be called a "ruff", or "flam". I could easily live with that. Mahler's sketches call for single bass drum strokes marked only forte, not fortissimo. Like Rattle, I would also do offstage bass drum strokes, but NOT placed too far offstage. I would ask for a solid forte, but not a fortissimo - not so much because of the difference in volume, but because of the difference in tone quality. When the bass drum returns after the long flute solo, I would have it played back onstage, sounding almost fortissimo. As with some of the completions, I would probably double the very last bass drum shot with the tam-tam.

Barry

Offline Jot N. Tittle

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Re: Rattle M9 at Carnagie
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2007, 10:44:53 PM »
Thanks, Barry, for picking up on this old thread embedded in another thread. You're a percussion man, right? Can a tattoo be done on a bass drum? (Not being cute, an honest question from a non-drummer.)

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Offline barry guerrero

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Re: Rattle M9 at Carnagie
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2007, 07:59:04 AM »
"Can a tattoo be done on a bass drum?"

Certainly. You use two mallets, and it helps greatly to tip the bass drum at a nearly 45 degree angle; or even fully sideways. That gives the player far better leverage. If it's a really large bass drum that sounds a bit sloppy, you just shift the mallets away from the center of the drum head - more towards the rim, in other words. If it's still too sloppy sounding - in which case, the drum head probably needs more tightening - you can use the wooden side of the mallets. Just as with gong mallets, there are also many different kinds of bass drum mallets to choose from. Sooner or later, you're bound to find just the sound you're wanting to hear.

Barry
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 08:05:48 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline Jot N. Tittle

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Re: Rattle M9 at Carnagie
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2007, 10:15:39 PM »
Fantastic! How good it is to learn something new. Many thanks, Barry.

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Offline Amphissa

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Re: Rattle M9 at Carnagie
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2007, 05:13:33 AM »


Speaking of M9, in the Buy Sell Trade section of this board, I've offered a cool package that might interest some of you.

"Life without music is a mistake." Nietzsche

 

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