gustavmahlerboard.com
General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: barryguerrero on July 13, 2023, 09:38:22 AM
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https://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Mahler-1860-1911_000000000019272/item_Sym-1-Bychkov-Czech-Po_14126207
The timings are 16:39; 7:29; 10:31; 20:31. All pretty normal looking.
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This and 3 are the ones I’m most looking forward to still from this team. Those were my favorites from the Neumann cycle.
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Bychkov does a great M6 in general, so I'm looking to that as well. In fact, I think he'll do really well with the challenging 'adult' trilogy of M6, M7 and (eventually) M8. His Cologne M3 was very expansive, so it'll be interesting to see if he tightens that up a bit.
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I won’t expect anything on the quick side, since all his Pentatone Mahlers so far seem pretty down the middle, if slightly expansive (the M2). I don’t find any of them unpredictable so far though. If anything I was slightly surprised by the 9:10 Adagietto.
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I have an archive of Bychkov/CPO M6th from a recent concert.
IT IS A GREAT MAHLER 6th by all accounts, slower and more expansive than his take with NYPO but all the more powerful, darker, and grimmer.
John
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Well, good. Mahler 6 is all about the grim reaper, and the tuba is the prophet of doom in the finale.
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Brief snippets of Bychkov/C.P.O. M1 are now up on Spotify. They sound quite good, too.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9513805--mahler-symphony-no-1#tracklist
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This just came out.
Listen to the last few minutes and tell me the piccolo is miked insanely high. I might be going crazy.
It ruins it for me.
Everything else sounds quite good though, but Bychkov really lacks propulsion. The end of the first movement is unexciting, as is the slow coda to the finale. It can be done well slow, like Ozawa and Kubelík, but this doesn’t do it for me.
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Well, maybe I'm just getting a bit old and lethargic myself. I listened to just the endings of both the first movement and finale. I didn't mind what they did at all. There was a lot of detail, and short notes in the woodwinds could be heard as being just that: short notes. I rather like how you can clearly hear the high strings chugging away near the end of the finale - it's sort of like when they do the ending of the Shostakovich 5th slowly. I didn't mind the piccolo so much either - it's not terribly loud on my system (it's there, sure).
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I should listen with fresh ears then. It must have been too late at night for me to be giving a focused opinion (past midnight).
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It sounds much better with a new perspective; I was listening with headphones before, and after checking it out this morning on actual speakers it's improved.
The piccolo is still oddly present for me, but I don't think it's a dealbreaker anymore. I've never heard the piccolo part there before, so to just suddenly hear it front and center threw me off a bit. Sort of like how the harps are in Paavo Järvi's M2.
I still think Bychkov lacks drive in the big spots, but the orchestra sounds incredible. Great horns! And I love the timpani playing, those subtle crescendos at the end really come out.
As for the very last note, Bychkov seems to do the "Bernstein thing" of adding a loud percussive hit. Although instead of a bass drum, this sounds like a very loud timpani hit and I think I prefer it. What do you guys hear, bass drum or timpani? It would have to be a low D on the 32" timpani, which is VERY low (sometimes so low that it doesn't produce much of a tone). I think the timpanist is playing D octaves on the last two notes (think like how they do F octaves for Beethoven 9 scherzo, which is funny because that movement also opens with D octaves for the orchestra).
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A tremendous performance and recording, the best outing so far in the ongoing Mahler cycle by Bychkov/CPO.
The playing is nothing short of superlative, the sonics spectacularly resplendent!
Like Bernstein always used to do, Bychkov addes a bass drum whack on the very last note of Finale. Interesting and delicious
John
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I think your timpani analysis is correct, Eric. However, you'd be the most qualified person here to do that analysis. I just want to be clear, I'm not planning on buying a copy of Bychkov's M1. I will listen to the whole thing on Spotify (their sound is good enough for me). I'm waiting for more of the bigger symphonies to roll out. I think M9 will be next, followed by M6. I would be particularly keen to hear if he shortens up his M3 a bit from his earlier Cologne one (which was very good). We know the 6th should be really good. I'd be very curious about M8 and M9. I suspect they'll do the 8th last, but you never know until you do know.
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Upon several repeated listens to this new release I have to admit that I dislike it quite a bit. The second listen was better, which I posted about, but for me it’s only gone downhill from there.
I found myself bored listening to it, something that almost never happens to me with Mahler.
I’m rooting for this cycle, but I have disliked each release more than the last. Here’s hoping it gets better from here.
I wish I liked it, and I’m envious of those who do. I still love the sound of the orchestra, and Pentatone’s sonics are just okay to me.
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I'm having some nasty health issues at the moment, so I haven't been doing much listening lately - or much of anything else, for that matter. I did listen to the two inner movements of Bychkov's M1, and I liked those just fine. Those are my favorite movements of M1 anyway. I thought the so-called Eastern European, Klezmer like sections of the third movement were done really well. I liked the faster than usual tempo for the trio section of the Scherzo as well. My problem is that I just wouldn't want to buy any M1 at this point that doesn't have some fillers ("Blumine", "Songs of a Wayfarer", etc.), unless it were just super exceptional. Therefore, I guess I'm coming to this release with somewhat lowered expectations. I think or suspect that Bychkov will excel more in the REALLY big symphonies.
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Sorry to hear about your situation, Barry. I hope all the best for you.
Bychkov’s first two releases were amazing, especially that Fourth, so my hopes are still up.
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After a couple of listens this past weekend, I find myself in somewhat in the same camp as Erik.
After listening to the very broad and, ultimate calm of the first movement, I wondered too myself if the Czech Republic had legalized cannabis. This has to be the most calm, relaxed playing of this work on record. It seems that almost all the accents in the tutti woodwind sections have zero bite. Ignoring almost all the accents. Everything is nicely separated, but it lacks any sort of character. Where is my horn trill!
The middle movements I liked. More character and atmosphere in these. The Finale just feels flat, but all of these Bychkov recordings come across that way in the large moments.
On the other hand, this may be the best recorded M1 to grace my speakers. Hell, these may be the best recorded and engineered Mahler cycle I've yet heard. The solo bass opening the 3rd movement has never been captured better. The timpani, and all the subtle rolls and dynamics have never sounded as good. Los of good tuba! The texture and color in the paring of the woodwinds speaks so well. The aim of these recordings seems to be clarity and transparency for study, because everything is laid bare.
Personally, I was very hyped for the 3rd and 7th. Now, I'm not so sure. After hearing the Bychkov M6 with New York, I was expecting a little more.
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After listening to the very broad and, ultimate calm of the first movement, I wondered too myself if the Czech Republic had legalized cannabis. This has to be the most calm, relaxed playing of this work on record. It seems that almost all the accents in the tutti woodwind sections have zero bite. Ignoring almost all the accents. Everything is nicely separated, but it lacks any sort of character. Where is my horn trill!
Chris I think you put into words what I was trying to say much better than I did. It was mainly the first movement that was "boring" (Mahler "boring" is different than literal boring), but the finale was a bit flat for me too. There have been longer first movements (Honeck, Chailly I think), but if it's going to be over 16.5 minutes there has to be a lot of nuance to keep things interesting. At least the Czech Phil plays beautifully, but the simple beauty of the playing isn't enough to keep me engaged. It should be sounding like the Budapest Festival Orchestra; the strings have the ability to play that good, but if there's so little character then what's the point of conducting it so slowly? I got hints of this from their very deliberate finale of the Fifth, almost à la Barbirolli, but that movement is fun enough to keep me engaged on its own.
So far Bychkov's tempos have been an unpredictable mix: a very slow M1.I but average-paced following movements, slower than average M2 overall, "faster" Adagietto but deliberate M5 finale, average paced M4. I can't predict what his tempos might be for the remaining works, besides what we know from his past M3 and M6. Another recent cycle with tempos this unpredictable are Nott's.
I'm also still hung up on that damn piccolo being so loud in the finale, but I shouldn't lose the forest for the trees.
The middle movements I liked. More character and atmosphere in these.
You're absolutely right: I do think the inner movements were excellent, especially the third movement. It's honestly one of the finest I can think of and I should be giving it more credit.
On the other hand, this may be the best recorded M1 to grace my speakers. Hell, these may be the best recorded and engineered Mahler cycle I've yet heard. The solo bass opening the 3rd movement has never been captured better. The timpani, and all the subtle rolls and dynamics have never sounded as good. Los of good tuba! The texture and color in the paring of the woodwinds speaks so well. The aim of these recordings seems to be clarity and transparency for study, because everything is laid bare.
I must not be hearing it with the right sound setup, but I'll trust you that it has exceptional sound quality. I'll retract what I said about the engineering since I don't have a fair way to judge it professionally.
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Frankly, I'm not sure Mahler 1 has been bettered since Bruno Walter. There have been many equally good ones, and 'different' ones, sure. I think I just come to M1 with somewhat lowered expectations. I'm frankly kind of 'over' all the bombast in the Finale anyway. I had a lot of fun playing the cymbal part at the end of M1, once upon a time. It was in a gym, and there was some sort of podium just sitting there towards the rear. So I got up on that podium and played the concluding two pages by memory. That was a blast! I've played M1 on tuba several times as well . . . . They make a big deal about the tuba solo in the third movement, but it really isn't difficult at all. The tuba part to M2 is a much, MUCH bigger challenge.
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M1 is my least favorite of the 11 symphonies. Even then, I'm still looking for a recording that really does it for me on all fronts. Bertini, Boulez, Nott, Harding, and YNS come close. If the Düsseldorfers played a bit tighter in the finale of their recording that would be another top contender for me.
This symphony might be one of the easier ones to play, but I really find it to be one of the hardest to make a "great" recording of, along with the Fifth and Seventh.
Contrary to the Fourth and Ninth, which I believe have been very lucky on record.
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Very good points. No argument.
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Believe or not, M1 is the most frequently performed of all Mahler symphonies and I do think it has received many fine, even great interpretations on records and in concerts. It was also my introduction piece to Mahler. My favorite ones are,
Bernstein/NYPO and RCO
Giulini/CSO
Kubelik/BRSO
Mehta/IPO (Decca)
Neumann/CPO
Muti/PO
YNS/BRSO
John
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I especially like the Bernstein/RCO, first Kubelík, Neumann, and YNS ones you listed there, John.
I wish Kubelík didn't skip the repeat in his scherzo. It's not a big deal though. With Mahler, all repeats should be taken. He rarely uses them, so when he does he has great purpose for it.
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Barry,
Where did you hear that the next Mahler release by Bychkov/CPO will be M9th? I thought it would be M6th ...?
John
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I didn't hear that. I just thought they had performed M9 before M6, but I might have that backwards! . . . . As far as I know, they have not performed M3, M7 or M8. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that. There certainly isn't a shortage of really good M7 recordings with the C.P.O. as it is. I only own Bychkov's M4 and M2 so far. I liked the M5, but not enough to add it to my ridiculous collection. The next one I'll definitely add will be M6, especially since Bychkov performs it Scherzo/Andante. It'll be sort of a souvenir of the OUTSTANDING M6 I heard Bychkov give with the Vienna Phil. roughly 10 years ago (maybe less). I will be very, VERY curious to hear what an updated M8 with the Czech Phil. would sound like. Hopefully Pentatone will put their best foot forward in recording it.