Catfight at NY Phil Over Gilbert Kaplan's Credentials

[Damfino]

Click here to read about the orchestra "revolt" against Kaplan's conducting of the M2. A lot of the old complaints-"he's not a conductor", "little more than a traffic cop", etc. Lots of catty remarks that probably should not have been made public.

[barry guerrero]

I've never seen Gil. Kaplan conduct the work, so I can't speak about his technique; or lack thereof. I do feel that both of his recordings are far more than just competent. I've had lunch with him, and I can tell you that he's extremely concerned about ALL of the details and markings in the score. Here's where I part ways with one of the player's opinions: "“He wasn’t able to really show much, other than being the traffic cop. This is a piece that requires a great deal of passion, and it was nonexistent.” The way I see it, the passion is already built into the music.

It's built into Mahler's carefully gradated dynamics and balances. It's built into his incredible and deliberate sound effects. It's built into his very specific and un-timid ways of dealing with huge climaxes. Frankly folks, I would take either of Kaplan's recordings over Benstein's incredibly protracted account with the NYPO from the mid '80s. I would take them over MTT's as well, in spite of Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson, and the rockin' organ in Davies Hall. Seriously, the more I listen to Mahler - which is a whole lot - the more I hear an association with Haydn. I believe that Kaplan starts from a more "classical" stance on the work. So do I.

Barry

[vvrinc]

Even though members of the NYP have been historically known to eat conductors for lunch, I believe Mr. Finlayson’s remarks are to the point. The only surprising thing is that Kaplan has been tolerated...and engaged...for as long as he has. Does any one doubt that, without his substantial wealth, he would have been unceremoniously asked to “put the baton where the sun doesn't shine” years ago? A few years back, I particularly enjoyed the pompous ass lecture on the “historically correct” tempo for the 4th movement of Mahler’s Fifth Symphony.

Barry, I agree that MTT can be (very) annoying. However, he does so competently.

[barry guerrero]

There's no doubt that his wealth enabled him to get started on such an obsession. But the fact that it's an obsession does not, by definition, make him incompetent. If he were as much as a fraud as some people are claiming, he would have been called-out for it long before now. Kaplan has conducted the work all over the world, and has received praise for his performances almost everywhere. Whether his conducting technique is wanting (or not), he knows the "Resurrection" symphony as well or better than pretty much anybody. Perhaps I'm wrong on this point, but I believe that the Vienna Phil. would not have joined him in recording his corrected performing version, if they thought that he was a complete and utter hack. Frankly, I think that both of his recordings are far more to the point than Maazel's excessively expansive performances frequently are. Also, if one pays close attention to Bruno Walter's N.Y. recording of M2, Kaplan comes far closer to Walter's tempo relationships than most other folks.

Certainly the NYPO has performed Mahler with a great number of conductors. Undoubtedly, many, if not most of those conductors are far more talented than Gil. Kaplan. But as Kaplan himself stated, he got the results that he was looking for. If that's true, what more does he need to do? Is the job of the conductor to please the performers? In many respects, I think that they are among the worst to judge. I say that as a performer myself.

[david johnson]

'The way I see it, the passion is already built into the music.
It's built into Mahler's carefully gradated dynamics and balances. It's built into his incredible and deliberate sound effects. It's built into his very specific and un-timid ways of dealing with huge climaxes.'

amen!

dj

[akiralx]

I've never seen Gil. Kaplan conduct the work, so I can't speak about his technique; or lack thereof. I do feel that both of his recordings are far more than just competent....

Barry

I dismissed Kaplan until I heard his VPO recording, which I have to confess is bloody good...

[Leo K]

I've never seen Gil. Kaplan conduct the work, so I can't speak about his technique; or lack thereof. I do feel that both of his recordings are far more than just competent....

Barry

I dismissed Kaplan until I heard his VPO recording, which I have to confess is bloody good...

Indeed!  It is a fantastic performance.  And his LSO M2 was my first Mahler recording...I was a Mahler-virgin until then, so I have the world to thank Mr.Kaplan for.    And I can't even tell what Maazel is obsessed with!



--Todd

[Damfino]

For a long time, I refused to listen to Kaplan. To this day, I have never heard his original recording of M2. I was hung up on the idea that if I were going to listen to the M2, it should be performed by "real" musicians, and not some amateur who thinks he knows better.

One day, I turned on XM radio and they were playing a recording of the M2. The performers were not identified on the dial, and I listened to the entire performance. I was surprised to find out it was the Kaplan VPO recording. When I was looking for some SACD versions of the work, I decided to give the Kaplan a try. It is easily one of my favorite M2s now.

Dave Hurwitz has a good review of the recording at Classics Today. He not only does a fair review of the recording, but gives a good summation of the whole "Kaplan's not a real conductor" charges that are frequently made.

I frankly think the trombonist was out of line. It would be one thing if Kaplan were named as the new principal conductor. However, we all know he just does the M2, and it probably sells tickets when he is engaged. He certainly has studied the score. The trombonist (indeed orchestra members everywhere) probably get stuck performing with a conductor they dislike, or do not respect or even despise. Or they may have to play music they hate, but that's part of the job. This latest Kaplan dust-up would have been more understandable if it had occurred back when Kaplan burst onto the scene. By now, we all know Kaplan is "that rich dude obsessed with the Mahler 2", and it's no longer news if someone thinks he lacks the bonafides to conduct. The M2 is something I like to hear live, and I'd jump at the chance to attend a Kaplan M2 concert. Even if all he does is "direct traffic", I'd rather hear him do that than listen to a more qualified conduct do a poor job or impose the wrong reading on the work. "Real" conductors are as capable of producing execrable results as amateurs. Apparently the trombonist would have no problem playing in a bad performance with a conductor with the proper pedigree.

Now, if they had brought Bobby McFerrin in to "conduct", I'd be in complete support of an orchestra revolt.

[john haueisen]

First, let me say that I am NOT an expert on conductors, but I do appreciate the results they obtain.  Two months ago in Cincinnati, I watched Kaplan conduct (M2, of course) and later had a chance to speak with him.

He was certainly not the most colorful conductor I've seen, but his results in a live performance were certainly better than many recordings I've heard.
Remember too, that Mahler spelled out in his scores, in far greater detail than most composers, exactly how he wanted his music performed. So a conductor could do a rather good job just by staring at the score and urging those directions upon an orchestra.

I was in no way bothered by Kaplan's style, and certainly not by his excellent results.  Remember what Barry often reminds us:  listen to the music--that's the key thing.
--John H

[barry guerrero]

Very well put. His LSO recording is nearly 20 years old now (came out in the middle '80s). He gave M2 its premiere in China, where the musicians were not terribly familiar with the work. In fact, they brought in military brass players for the offstage parts, and had to have their parts transposed into the only key that they knew how to play in (A natural, I think it was). It took some time and effort to get all that offstage stuff coordinated. But once they did, it went off in concert without a hitch (or so Kaplan said). That in itself says something about his ability to manage rehearsals and teach the piece. I know that he himself put a lot of time and effort into his Urtext version of M2 (along with others). So, I'm not saying that he's the greatest M2 conductor ever to have come along. But I am saying that he's been doing this too long to legitimately have the I-word tossed his way (incompetent). Regardless, he's done a lot of good for the good-old Mahler cause.

[john haueisen]

He gave M2 its premiere in China, where the musicians were not terribly familiar with the work. In fact, they brought in military brass players for the offstage parts, and had to have their parts transposed into the only key that they knew how to play in (A natural, I think it was). It took some time and effort to get all that offstage stuff coordinated. But once they did, it went off in concert without a hitch (or so Kaplan said). That in itself says something about his ability to manage rehearsals and teach the piece.


Hey everyone, isn't it great to read postings on the mahlerboard!  Where else would we hear about the military brass players brought in for an M2 premiere in China.  I'm serious about this--thanks, Barry!  I used to love to scour LP liner notes for items like this. 
Thanks Barry, for each tidbit you post.  There are those of us out here who just devour them.

--John H

[david johnson]

let the nypo record the work w/o a conductor and then with him at the helm.  then compare the results.  they would probably prefer him.

dj

[sperlsco]

The difference in reaction of the audience versus that of the performing musicians is always interesting.  IIRC, we had an old thread discussing that musicians generally respect and appreciate Maazel as a conductor -- and perhaps someone on the Board has even played for him (Note: I may be confusing this with a thread from the Good Music Board).   So, I wonder what that NYPO musician's opinion is of Maazel as a Mahler conductor.  For me, I generally dislike Maazel's commercial recordings of Mahler, and have been particularly repulsed by all of the OperaShare performances I've heard.  Conversely, Kaplan's first M2 recording is one of my very favorites (I enjoy the VPO one - but not near as much). 

[Leo K]

Norman Lebrecht weighs in (from http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2008/12/the_player_who_forgot_his_plac.html)


The player who forgot his place
- Hold the front page, hot story coming in.

- What is it?

- There's a player in the orchestra who didn't like last week's conductor.

- Come again? Yeah, that's right. There's a trombone in the New York Phil beefing on his blog about the guy who did Mahler 2. Get some pictures in.

Is this some kind of mistimed joke, or the end of journalism on the New York Times? For reasons better left uninvestigated, the Times has made a C1 splash today of comments made by a trombonist - the third trombone, I believe - about the amateur conductor Gilbert E Kaplan who led Mahler Second last week.

According to the player, Kaplan ignored 'a blizzard' of Mahler's instructions and had a beat the band could not follow. Any good that came out of the performance was entirely to the credit of the players, working against impossible odds.

Well, let's get a couple of things straight. There isn't an orchestra in the world that does not represent a diversity of views. Every time Simon Rattle steps onto the podium in Berlin, a dozen players grunt and grumble. When Abbado rehearsed the LSO, they complained of boredom. When Dudamel does his hightail tricks, they accuse him of showmanship. Musicians complaining about conductors is not news. It's part of their job description.

The difference here is that a player decided to blog his dissent and the local fish-rag picked it up. Before we consider the facts of the matter - and I attended the performance, as the Times reporter evidently did not - let's just consider whose failure that is. Is it Kaplan's, or is it the New York Philharmonic's for failing to impose appropriate corporate discretion on its musicians?

Every self-respecting orchestra in the world maintains certain public courtesies in the interest of self-preservation and maintaining audience mystique. What we have just seen at the NY Phil is a failure of  management procedures. If I were chairman, I'd have the chief executive and the PR on my carpet before the morning's coffee break.

And while we're in the blame game, let's just ask ourselves if the trombonist would have slagged off a professional conductor, whom he might have to face again next season? I think we know the answer to that.

Now to the performance. I make no secret of being a long-standing friend and admirer of Gilbert Kaplan's. I have published that disclaimer several times and have no reason whatsoever to be ashamed of it. Having watched him master the work over almost 25 years, I am convinced - and so are many musicians - that no-one alive has such detailed knowledge of the score. My own credentials on the subject are as the author of one published book on Mahler and another in progress.

But don't take my word for it. Players in the London Symphony Orchestra, the Vienna Philharmonic and the Stockholm Phil will testify to his grasp of minutiae - not just the annotations that Maher made on 14 different scores but the reasons for those annotations. If the trombonist is feeling frisky, perhaps we should put him on a platform with Kaplan to see which of them knows more of the notes.

There is certainly criticism to be made of Kaplan's technique - he is an amateur, after all - and he does not bring to the rostrum the encyclopaedic knowledge of repertoire and orchestral psychology that one can expect from a Jansons or a Maazel. But he can deliver a memorable performance and he seldom fails, in my experience, to illuminate something new in the score.

I have heard him do the Mahler 2 several times, on occasion with greater impact than he made at Avery Fisher last week. The original NY Times review was very positive and there were rhythms in the second and third movements that he delivered more idiomatically and true to score than I have heard from most professionals. The performance as a whole achieved its intended catharsis - and if the New York Philharmonic think they can do that without a conductor, as the trombonist suggests, well, let's see them try. Go on, book a date.

I had the impression, watching the orchestra's body language, that they were not comfortable on the night. They are a bunch of very fine players. They also have a reputation for very bad attitude. There is a reason why many of the world's best will not conduct the NY Phil. And that may be the same reason why the next music director barely ranks in the top league.

If there was a story to cover here, it was about the New York Philharmonic behaving badly. But are we going to read that in the New York Times? When pigs can fly, perhaps.

[john haueisen]

Many thanks, Todd, for bringing us Norman Lebrecht's illuminating comments on the NY Phil "catfight."
I think it corroborates what Barry and others of us have said here at the gustavmahlerboard.