gustavmahlerboard.com
General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: stillivor on February 17, 2012, 07:56:35 PM
-
He died 17th feb. '62.
One of my first Mahler purcheses was his Indian summer performance of M9.
Ivor
-
We all owe him gratitude for his efforts to make the public aware of the genius of Mahler.
-
yes, but.. I have never forgiven him for trying to persuade Alma to destroy all the sketches of the 10th symphony. ;)
-
yes, but.. I have never forgiven him for trying to persuade Alma to destroy all the sketches of the 10th symphony. ;)
Maybe I'm missing something somewhere.....but where is it documented that he tried to persuade Mahler's wife to destroy the sketches?
Wade
-
Maybe I am missing something as that was my understanding but can not find a reference. I do know he at least was behind her ban on completion for so long.
If anyone has any info, let me know. Thanks.
-
If anyone has any info, let me know. Thanks.
Bruno Walter was an advocate for total suppression of the unfinished Tenth, and he communicated this to Alma on several occasions. He based his position on 1) the fact that Mahler had once told his physician, Joseph Fraenkel, that in the event the work remained incomplete, the sketches should be burned; and 2) his awareness of Mahler's lifelong aversion to ever showing his unfinished works to anyone. The entire matter is quite complicated, as was Walter's often strained relationship with Alma. A summary of the issue extends over many pages of Henry-Louis de La Grange's Volume 4, Appendix 1Bc—see (at least) pp. 1455–1471.
James
-
Ok, I was not crazy. I did not get my info from de la Grange's work, but from an article or something. Maybe he did not tell Alma to destroy them but he was, as it is noted, instrumental in having the sketches suppressed for so long.
I still love his 57 M2... that redeems him (almost) ;)
-
Bruno Walter was entrusted as Mahler's disciple with the first performances of the 9th and Das Lied after Mahler's death. He was also a prominent champion of Mahler's work for his entire career. If he had reservations about the 10th, so did Klemperer, Horenstein, and others. A great range of the 10th was published in brilliant facsimile in 1924, so there was never the option after that of not knowing of the symphony. I have a copy of that 1924 facsimile that is so close to the original manuscript that Alma and others could not tell the difference.
Walter's recordings of Mahler are of great historical and artistic importance. His were, I believe, the first commercial recordings of 4, 5, 9, and Das Lied.
It is illogical to ignore Walter's crucial dedication to Mahler because of a reported incident of his doubts about the completion of the 10th.
-
My first Mahler purchase was also Walter's 9th with the Columbia Symph. Orch. on Odyssey. I also enjoy his 1 & 2 on Columbia, and much of his Beethoven, Brahms, Dvorak and Mozart.
-
Perhaps what James Meckley says above should be read by those having Henri-Louis de la Grange's Mahler biography, Vol. IV, as to what is documented in those 16 pages and temper it with Walter's legacy in his dedication to Mahler. I'm one of those that needs to read it, but other more pressing things have my attention.
-
I have read de la Grange fairly carefully.
But again, the great majority of the manuscript of 10 was published in brilliant facsimile in 1924 for all who wished to consult it no matter who had reservations. Alma even writes in an inserted comment sheet to the facsimile that the 10th symphony is "now [in 1924] available for all to see." It is true some additional sketches have been found from other collections, but something like 90% of Mahler's drafts have been available for study since the Paul Szolnay facsimile edition of 1924.
As a performing musician, Walter was as close to Mahler as anyone in the world ever was. Mahler would play through piano versions of his symphonies when they were ready for Walter as well as others. He was not the only one with deep reservations about reconstructing the drafts. Klemperer would only perform the first Adagio, the most complete movement of the draft.
Mahler's reputation would have been much weaker in our time without the dedication and musical genius of Bruno Walter.
-
You might also want to consult Walter's short book on Mahler published in German in Vienna in 1936 and in English translation in 1937 for an example of his advocacy of Mahler 76 years ago. Probably a bit before anyone on this list knew of Mahler.
Tom in Vermont
-
A bit of a clarification. I hold Walter in high esteem. His recordings are priceless and without his advocacy of his friend Mahler this whole board would likely not exist. To me his 1952 Das Lied and even the 1960 version are desert island discs. The 1938 M9 is of course legendary. I love his NYP M2 and his Mozart is how I like it.
My comment about his involvement with the 10th was totally tongue in cheek and never intended as a total rejection of his legacy. BUT! in a fantasy world where I would meet Maestro Walter, I would tell him how I felt about his involvement with M10. He would likely tell me how he felt about the whole thing too. ;)
-
I disagree with what I believe are some of the assumptions being made above. Without Bruno Walter, Mahler's music would still have gained the same stature by almost the same time. I say that not because of anything that Walter did or didn't do, but because Mahler's music is so grand and so overpowering that nothing could have stopped it. If the nazis couldn't kill it, then it's my opinion that nobody will ever succeed in doing so.
While I am not trying to diminish Walter's efforts in any real way, he was pretty much the same as any one else who had handled Mahler's music: some performances were better than others. In some respects, I think Klemperer was just as simpatico. Then there was Fried and Mengelberg, even though we have little evidence of their achievements. Regardless, they shouldn't be discounted either. The topic of the 10th symphony is an issue entirely on to its own - one that nobody owns, including Walter.
-
I have to disagree with some of Barry's assumptions.
Who would have conducted the 9th and Das Lied in 1911 and 1912 if Walter didn't? And why was he the conductor and not Klemperer or Fried or Mengelberg? Who would have recorded them in the late 30s? Who else performed Mahler in the US? Mengelberg wasn't allowed to conduct much Mahler in his later career, alhtough he was a great advocate during and for a while after Mahler's life. Did he perform Mahler in New York? Fried did have the acoustic Mahler 2, but that was limited and an old fashioned format by 1926.
I know Barry is a bit divided over Walter's performances, but Walter was still the major international conductor performing Mahler and publicly promoting Mahler for many years. And his recordings of 9, Das Lied, 4, and 5, all before 1950 made innumerable converts to Mahler. My first Das Lied was the 78 set borrowed from the Phoenix public library in 1958 with the Mahler profile labels. I couldn't afford the London LPs.
Just having great art lying around is not sufficient for it to become known. Think of Bach's choral works before Mendelssohn become their advocate. Or the Janacek opera before Mackerras performed and recorded them.
Others made important contributions, of course, but I think it historically inaccurate to underrate Walter's major role in enlarging Mahler's reputation over four decades.
Best to all,
Tom in Vermont
-
"Who would have conducted the 9th and Das Lied in 1911 and 1912 if Walter didn't?"
I suppose Klemperer didn't have an orchestra of his own at that time, but certainly Mengelberg was familiar enough with Mahler's music to have just as easily done the job.
I have one other slight issue with some of the conversations that come up: I don't think that we should assume that Alma was always wrong. All of these people were very strong willed people, including Walter. The fashionable, 'beat up on Alma parade' likes to believe that she was wrong on virtually every single issue. I don't buy that.
-
I agree with Barry on Alma.
I personally think Alma's note to Mengelberg, I believe, about the order of the movements of the 6th to be quite valid. Much discussion on the issue of course, but along with Tennstedt, I find the slow movement 3rd makes emotional sense.
And Alma did keep the manuscript and allow the 10th facsimile of 1924, and her response to the Cooke/Goldschmidt BBC program on the 10th shows real response to the greatness of the music, late in life, and she encouraged its performance after that.
A very remarkable woman in many ways. She must have been one of the most fascinating women of the era.
Tom in Vermont