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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: barry guerrero on April 15, 2014, 01:48:19 PM
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http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/sinfonie-6/hnum/5010746
Oehms put this on two discs. I guess that was necessary for the sacd layer. It's in andante/scherzo order. It's difficult to tell anything from such short excerpts. What I can tell you is that the loud timpani stroke at the start of the scherzo isn't correct. Mahler writes for the first one to be softer than all the subsequent ones. It's a subtle distinction that makes a big difference.
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Thanks for the heads up Barry, and the report about the mistake.
To be honest, I'm tired of andante/scherzo performances. I know it's the new normal, but it just doesn't sound right, no matter how many scholarly articles there are supporting it. At least there's a lot of both choices so I guess I can't complain.
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I know that Jerry Bruck worked hard and tirelessly (does that mean w/o tires?) on this issue. But clear back when I was having online arguments with him (I won't call it "debate" because he was extremely defensive), I tried to make him see that it was ludicrous to believe that an entire generation of conductors had been 'duped' into performing Mahler 6 in scherzo/andante order: Bernstein, Abaravanel, Kubelik, Solti, Haitink, etc. This issue comes up immediately in ANY performance of M6 because the player's parts are in andante/scherzo order. Awareness of this schism has been around pretty much since day one. I'm glad to see that conductors are taking matters into their own hands and doing it as they see best from a purely musical standpoint.
I also believe that if Mahler had lived on, he might have revised the finale a second time. I say that because I'm convinced that Mahler went too far in paring down the brass and percussion at the brief 'false victory parade' passage at the end of the final allegro. I think he was experimenting with a more 'Impressionistic', Debussy-like treatment of that passage (think of the distant trumpets in the procession from Debussy's "Nocturnes"). But it just sounds ridiculous when the violins are playing they're syrupy lines fortissimo; the horns are playing a soft forte (often times underplayed), and the percussion hardly make a dent. In the first version, the trombones double the horns there, and there's more percussion as well. It really should be the climax of that entire last allegro 'charge' because everything in the entire movement leads up to that moment - before it all collapses.
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I am very happy with this disc. When I decided to buy it, I had listened to the Finale on headphones in our local Classical CD shop. Just that. Boy, what a finale. A powerful dramaturgy.
There certainly are just as much types of drama as there are interpreters, but there is a sort of distinction to be made, and it depends at which point of the Finale's course hope breaks down and the idea that all could end well is given up. Stenz is one of the few who keeps hope up until just before the last breakdown in full energy and glowing beauty. The result of the neck-breaking hammerblows isn't rising until the final appearance of the major-minor fate motif. The lucid A-major episode just before could also beluevably lead into a triumphal breakthrough. (The constructive strategy that denies that possibility is because it is already in A - a penultimate coda episode that could stride powerfully in a triumphal conclusion would rather come from a different key).
For me, the Andante-Scherzo has proven to have some advantages:
The immediate logic of thorough-composition (as in Schumann's fourth symphony) that Mahler originally had intended, is broken up and each movement keeps more independent weight of their own:
The first movement is a drama of its own, not only one of three preludes to the finale.
The Andante is an otherwordly dream of much more serenity than it would be as third movement, where it is more nostalgicly back-looking before the final fight.
The scherzo is much more sinister, bitter and venomous played after the Andante moderato.
Now,
listenig to the surround layer for the first time. Incredible clarity. Such a depth of perspective. What an orchestra! Wonderful Horns, solo trombone, tuba lines, shattering tamtam, beautiful bassoon,..... and the hammerblows....
Highly recommended.
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Barry,
according to the 1998 Critical edition (There is a newer one I don't yet own) the timpani opening is marked sforzato on the upbeat and the subsequent ones. The Celli/Basses have the sforzati one note later, on the first quaver of each bar.
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That's interesting because my score shows the opposite, which would make more musical sense to me. It shows mf for the timpani on the first note (which is actually the third beat, as you note), and then forte from there.
Stenz is great at finales. He has, IMHO, THE best finale to M7, as well as THE best ending to M8 ever. I also like how he handles the last seven minutes of the adagio to M3.
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Yes, an upbeat. Description of my score: all upbeats of the timpani marked sf, not mf. Forte written thus:Forte, with capital F directly above the upbeat note. And there is yet another thing that seems to come directly from Mahler's manuscript score: the beams that tie together every three eighth notes go over the barline. They are the same as in the Contrabassi, but shifted one eighth earlier. So I think it makes sense. I cross-checked the Kalmus score which is baded on a Russian reprint from an early print, it's the same, but I didn't cross-check the Eulenburg, which presents the very first print version. The critical report in the Kubik edition from1998 doesn't mention anything about it.
I really do live Stenz' 7th, too, for the exciting Finale which makes thoroughly sense. I'd really loved to work with them as librarian, but wasn't invited. F.X.Roth will be Stenz' successor as principal conductor in Köln, and he will do exciting things in terms of orchestral colour and balance, I'm sure. Didn't do much Mahler so far and I didn't hear his Bruckner, but his M1 was wonderful.
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Where is Stenz off to?
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He gets the new principal conductor of Radio Filharmonisch Orkest.
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Sorry to be a pest, but where are they based?
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I believe that's the Netherlands Radio Philharmonic Orchestra, based in Amsterdam.
James
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Radio Philharmonic is based in Hilversum, if anywhere, not Amsterdam (and Stenz is their principal conductor, Netherland Philharmonic ís based in Amsterdam and Marc Albrecht is their pc).
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I am very impressed with Stenz's M6. More detailed thoughts later...
-- Todd
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Todd! Where've you been? Merry X-mas to you. :D Glad you like the Stenz M6.
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Todd! Where've you been? Merry X-mas to you. :D Glad you like the Stenz M6.
Thank you Barry and Merry Christmas and New Year! I'm getting used to a whole new town and job after a cross country move!
I think I'm starting to prefer the M6 to be played pretty fast across the board, I'm trying to remember the most talked about M6's on the faster side...I just enjoyed the Sanderling M6 again, what a wonderful exciting performance :)
- Todd
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Todd, if M6 at brisk tempos is to your taste, try Kubelik. Timings for his BVRSO studio recording:
1. 21:12 (with exposition repeat)
2. 11:45 (Scherzo)
3. 14:42 (Andante)
4. 26:37
Although I prefer generally slower tempos, Kubelik makes it work, as only he could.
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I have always sworn by Kubelik's BVRSO DG recording of M6. I remember a critic recommending this one many, many years ago, and it has stood the test of time (and many other newcomers). Thankfully, before I sold my reel-to-reel version of this particular recording, I made a CD-R transfer of it.
Also, I have delayed getting Kubelik's entire DG cycle for all these years. It is on my Amazon wish list for purchase, along with Tennstedt's, when funds permit.
Wade
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Although my favorite Mahler is whatever I happen to be listening to at the moment, if pressed I would have to say M6. At one time I had more than 35 recordings, though I've let a number of them go to other listeners. Some I like a lot, but in a way I despair of ever hearing a performance that's completely satisfactory. I would like to hear Stenz.
I have the earlier issue of the Kubelik set. I wouldn't part with it, but it's a space waster with three triple-width jewel boxes in a slipcase. I like the idea of the current issue, a thinner cardboard box, probably with cardboard sleeves. I don't know if it's remastered, but my set is quite listenable, though the sound is a bit dated.