Author Topic: B.G. listens to Schwarz M7 (Artek) & Sinopoli/Dresden M4 (Profil)  (Read 9190 times)

Offline barry guerrero

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Well, I can't say that I'm sorry for picking up either of these. The Schwarz M7 was a pleasant surprise - mostly for the really good sound quality (real clear bells at the end of the symphony). I'll discuss the Schwarz M7 second.

I'm going to keep the Sinopoli/Dresden M4 (Profil). However, I really believe that it should have a warning sticker on the wrapper: "Warning; this product contains an incredibly self-indulgent, overly psychoanalyzed interpretation. Proceed at your own risk". Too bad, because much of the playing of the Staatskapelle Dresden is absolutely gorgeous. It makes one wonder why the Berlin Phil. was ever considered a big deal.

That said, however, a comparison of just the first movement between Abbado/BPO and Sinopoli/Dresden is enlightening. Abbado, like Sinopoli, is all over the map with his first movement too; only Abbado's numerous, sudden accellerandos and ritardandos, hold the movement together far better than Sinopoli's bizarre tempo contrasts from one section to the next. Believe me, Dave Hurwitz did not exaggerate in the least. Yet, again, the beautiful playing almost fully compensates for it. Almost!

In the second movement, Sinopoli nearly cancels any negative impressions that we we're left with from the first movement, as his scherzo strikes just the right balance between Halloween spookiness and Viennese kitsch (unlike Abbado/BPO, which is almost shockingly flat footed). Yet, once again, he slows down to a truly excessive degree at each and every trio passage. If only he had played the "straight shooter" role throughout the scherzo, I would have been left with a stronger impression for the entire symphony. Indeed, he pretty much IS a straight shooter in the slow movement, with gorgeous string playing that puts even Berlin and Vienna in the shade on many a day. This then, by default, is the best movement of the performance.

The finale requires a paragraph alone, as it encapsulates everything that is both good and bad. Again, as Dave pointed out, Sinopoli starts with a relatively slow tempo. When Juliane Banse enters, one of the great secrets to the Staatskapelle's tonal magic gets revealed: Ms. Banse sounds like she's singing in an echo chamber. Yet, it's not artificial reverb at all. The Semperoper has a truly "boomy" acoustic for any performer who's near the edge of the stage. The ramifications are obvious: the acoustics are both flattering and forgiving. Banse is a tad loud and operatic for my taste. Then again, she might have been recorded too closely. But the woodwinds of the Staatskapelle are a wonder to behold; so much so, that they give the excellent W.W.s in Amsterdam and Prague a good run for their money. The entire last section of the finale is quite slow too - well below the refreshingly quick tempo that both Bruno Walter and Mahler himself - on his piano roll - employed. Yet, as Richard Osborne pointed out in his Grammophone review, the undulating pulse in the harp - along with the rapid grace note from the Sheppard's horn (Cor Anglais) - lend a rhythmic profile, even at such a slow tempo, that's difficult to detect on the famous Maazel/VPO M4 (which is equally slow at the same, concluding spot).

All in all, you take the bad with the good on this particular recording. Funny thing is, though; while the British critics are praising this particular recording to the hilt, they would have scalped Sinopoli alive if he had given the same, self indulgent reading with London's Philharmonia Orchestra. In comparison, Sinopoli's earlier Philharmonia M4 is a far more cogent reading, along with possessing an excellent vocal contribution from Edita Gruberova. That one is more recommendable in the long run. You get this one primarily for the beautiful and committed playing of the Staatskapelle Dresden, as well as the long and detailed program notes provided by Profil - complete with lots of old photographs.

The Schwarz M7 is another story. Predictably, Schwarz is far more straight forward than Sinopoli. Yet, I find that Schwarz is rather successful in making the gradual transition from darkness to light, over the course of the entire symphony. More than anything, he's assisted by very good sound quality from the good folks hired by Artek (or whoever hired them). They call themselves Merseyside Sound Recordings. Anyway, the recording is both rich and detailed, with plenty of response in the lower end of the spectrum. Bass drum rolls jump right out of the box. The tuba grunts and snarls. Even the tenor horn solo that launches the symphony, sounds fuller and more vibrant than usual. "Extra musical" items are all very clear: guitar, mandolin, cowbells, deep bells; even the harp is very clear during the central, "moonlit" passage of the first movement (i.e. slow). All of this helps in bringing out the "concerto for orchestra" aspects of the work. Sadly, a big violin glissando at the very start of the second Nachtmusik is both oily and tacky sounding (or just takes some getting used to). But I also noticed that he brought out numerous, small glissandi throughout the fourth movement. That mad, uphill rush to the climactic plateau of the 2nd Nachtmusik  - which is actually a humorous anti-climax, in truth  - is nowhere as manic as it is on the recent Gergiev/LSO M7. But that's OK, who says that it has to sound manic?

Schwarz's finale isn't the mad romp of Gergiev/LSO (whicih is a lot like Kondrashin). Neither is it quite as cogent as Abbado (either one), or as inventive with its tempo solutions as MTT/SFSO (the only movement I truly like on his S.F. M7). But it's kind of nice mix of all of those. In fact, it reminds me a bit of the Barenboim one (only the Barenboim is slightly better played). Schwarz has very clear bells near the end of the finale, but his final peroration is a tad fast for my liking.

If all of this sounds like faint praise, let me just say that I really rather enjoyed this 7th from start to finish. The whole of it was a bit better than the sum of its parts. It's good enough that I'll keep it for at least a while.

 

« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 10:05:31 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline John Kim

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Re: B.G. listens to Schwarz M7 (Artek) & Sinopoli/Dresden M4 (Profil)
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2008, 03:54:01 PM »
Barry,

Oh well, whoever picked up this CD at my local Silver Splatter store before me he's a lucky guy >:( :-[.

Two(?) years ago I was at a concert of M7th conducted by Schwarz here in Seattle. I was not terribly impressed with the performance at that time. The main problem was that the orchestra didn't seem fully prepared to tackle the music. I heard lots of boisterous noise but the whole didn't make much sense to me. But after reading your review I am really curious how his interpretation has matured recently. Of course, RLPO should be better than Seattle Symphony orch. in this music. I am surprised that you reported that the sound quality is excellent. In case you didn't notice, the sound on Schwarz's M9th recording wasn't all that good.

John, listening to Maazel/VPO/Sony M7th (it's been many years since I last reached out to this CD, but I now find it much too my liking. A very cogent, romantic and sumptuously played and recorded M7th  :D).

Offline Leo K

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Re: B.G. listens to Schwarz M7 (Artek) & Sinopoli/Dresden M4 (Profil)
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2008, 04:24:59 PM »
Thanks Barry for he reviews...I will have to get these recordings.


John, ditto on the Maazel/VPO/Sony M7...I fee lthis is a really fine M7...well played.

--Todd

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: B.G. listens to Schwarz M7 (Artek) & Sinopoli/Dresden M4 (Profil)
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2008, 06:19:10 PM »
The Maazel/VPO M7 certainly possesses yummy, "sumptuous" sound. But guys, the scherzo isn't the slightest bit spooky or expressionistc, and the finale is the slowest on record, outside of Klemperer's infamous crawl (recorded very late in life). Where's the sense that the symphony is picking up from where the 6th left off (only in a much more concentrated manner), and dumping us on the doorstep of the celebratory 8th symphony?

However, here's an interesting side note for you guys: just like Maazel does in the second movement of his M7, Schwarz REALLY plays up the brief tango passage towards the end of the first Nachtmusik (it's great!).

I really doubt that the Royal Liverpool Phil., man (woman) for man (woman), is a better orchestra than the Seattle Symphony. In fact, I would definitely not consider the playing on Schwarz's M7 recording to be ideal. But it's good enough, and the recording captures lots of detail, as well as clarifying many items that some people would consider to be "extra musical" (guitar, mandalin, cow bells, deep bells, harp, glockenspiel, etc.). As a gesamtkunstwerk, it works better for me than the Maazel one you guys mention (just too slow in finale, as well parts of the first movement).


Now listen, I don't want to exaggerate things here. Overall, I think that my very favorite commercial recording of the 7th would probably still be the Barenboim (Warner). That one - for me - has the best combination of orchestral execution; sound quality, and interpretive insight (or more accurately, avoidance of conducting blunders). I also like Gergiev/LSO, just for the visceral excitement  of his last two movements (fast and exciting finale). But I'm certainly not sorry for having picked up the Schwarz.

Barry
« Last Edit: August 16, 2008, 12:19:39 AM by barry guerrero »

Offline sperlsco

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Re: B.G. listens to Schwarz M7 (Artek) & Sinopoli/Dresden M4 (Profil)
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2008, 11:18:38 PM »
I'm not sure if I'll get back to the Schwarz M7 too soon, but I am enjoying the offical version of the Gergiev one.  It is available as a download from eMusic.   I can't say that fast middle movements are my preferred way for this symphony, but Gergiev is making me more of a believer.  It makes me want to pull out the Barenboim one (and perhaps MTT/SFSO) for comparison.
Scott

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: B.G. listens to Schwarz M7 (Artek) & Sinopoli/Dresden M4 (Profil)
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2008, 09:16:06 PM »
As I recall (I'm at work), Gergiev leans more towards 10 minutes in his scherzo, while Barenboim's is a lean and trim 8:20.

I'm not sure if I'll get back to the Schwarz M7 too soon, but I am enjoying the offical version of the Gergiev one

I certainly wouldn't consider Schwarz's M7 to be essential listening. But I do like his second movement (first Nachtmusik) more than Gergiev's brief run-through of it (Gergiev's 13-something vs. Schwarz's 15:10); especially for the brief tango passage towards the end of it.

That said, I thought that Gergiev's tempo relationships were interesting, where the scherzo is only marginally faster than the first Nachtmusik.

Barry
« Last Edit: August 15, 2008, 09:22:31 PM by barry guerrero »

Offline John Kim

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Re: B.G. listens to Schwarz M7 (Artek) & Sinopoli/Dresden M4 (Profil)
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2008, 12:33:57 AM »
I finally got this CD and finished listening to the first two movts.

This recording of M7th Schwarz is miles better than his M9th with the same orchestra.

Simply put, this is a beautifully and FULLY characterized Mahler Seventh. The superior recording quality certainly helps a lot, but Schwarz seems to be eager to use all his techniques to make everything italicized and bold faced, which is a good thing in Mahler. What works for Schwarz is that all this is done not in an excessive but a sensible, cogent way. For example, he slows the second theme in I. way down but it doesn't sound out of place because the phrasing is so carefully done. He also employs sudden changes in dynamics as well as local effects in various places all very convincingly.

The playing of RLPO is excellent, much better than in their M9th recording. This one doesn't sound like a live recording, but the recording has both good depth and width with many detailed clearly audible. It also has warmth and good ambience.

I will come back and report about the rest of the symphony - am listening to the Scherzo movt. now and this one is equally pretty darn good - but I think I have already found one of the best renditions of M7th today. 

A total winner and a really outstanding Mahler Seventh!  :D  :D

John,
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 01:14:15 AM by John Kim »

Offline John Kim

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Re: B.G. listens to Schwarz M7 (Artek) & Sinopoli/Dresden M4 (Profil)
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2008, 03:36:55 AM »
Now that I have finished listening to the entire recording I agree with Barry that the Finale is a little bit letdown. However, so was Barenboim's and overall Schwarz's is close to the Barenboim in its concept. But I like the sound on the Schwarz better; it is richer sounding of the two. The playing of RLPO is not at all inferior to Barenboim's orchestra.

In particular, the orchestral details such as glissandi, pizzicato, grunting brass, etc. have startling presence, something that is rare in most other recordings. Even the Barenboim wasn't blessed with sonics this good.

My rating:

10/10

I am really pleased with this release and will look for more Mahler from this team. I heard they already recorded M5 and M6.

John,
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 03:44:58 AM by John Kim »

Offline Leo K

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Re: B.G. listens to Schwarz M7 (Artek) & Sinopoli/Dresden M4 (Profil)
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2008, 04:41:14 PM »
Sold! I just ordered a copy!  Can't wait to listen!

--Todd

Offline sperlsco

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Re: M7 timings and tour
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2008, 09:01:46 PM »
My memory told me that Gergiev, Barenboim, MTT, and Schwarz all have fast middle movements.  In reality, they're all a bit different.  I consider all of Gergiev's to be faster than average (13:48, 9:12, 11:51) but only his Nacht1 is at the extreme edge (although the Nacht2 is pretty close).  Gergiev's timings are rather similar to Boulez (13:56, 9:14, and 10:38), which I haven't listened to in a few years.  Schwarz is generally fast (15:10, 8:36, 12:38), but only his scherzo looks to be on the extreme edge (I use the word "looks", not "sounds", since I can't really remember).  Barenboim's (16:08, 8:20, 11:25) Nacht1 is about average, but the other two movements are certainly at the extreme side.  I'd grown to really like his scherzo, because it is one of the few that actually sounds scary -- as in uneasy and rather frightful.  As for MTT (15:32, 10:03, 13:30), I'm obviously off base in thinking of these as being fast.  His Nacht1 is perhaps on the fast side of average, but I really just don't like what he does here.  His affectations sound rather unmusical to my ears, although I quite like his Scherzo and Nacht2.  Looking at my collection, I also made note of Kondrashin/RCOA (14:06, 9:46, 10:48).  I know that this is one BG's favorites, and both Nacht movements are very fast indeed. 

Over the last few days, I've listened to Lennie/Sony(SACD), Abbado/CSO and Abbado/BPO.  I previously thought that I liked the Abbado BPO as much the the CSO, but generally found a higher level of intensity and sharper edges in the CSO one.  I do, however, prefer the brisker tempo of the BPO Nacht2, and the bells in the finale are out of this world (of course, the CSO has great deep bells too). 

I'm going to give the Schwarz another spin next.  Perhaps the weak solo trumpet will bother me less this time.  :o
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 11:37:02 PM by sperlsco »
Scott

Offline sperlsco

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Re: B.G. listens to Schwarz M7 (Artek) & Sinopoli/Dresden M4 (Profil)
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2008, 03:57:51 PM »
I haven't quite made it back through the Schwarz M7, but here is what I've noticed through the first four movements.  My prior reference to the solo trumpet as "weak" is a poor choice of words.  The solo trumpet is quite good in the first movement, especially when it needs to be loud.  However, there are a few spots where the trumpet needs to be heard over a more hushed orchestra, and it does not make it out of the mix.  I am a bit hypersensitive to the solo trumpet here, because I found this to be a big problem for me in the Schwarz M9.  Really, though, the first two movements are quite good overall. 

I am rather bothered by the Scherzo movement.  Schwarz' general tempo is robotically fast, not really stopping to smell the roses enough.  Comparatively, Barenboim is both faster and slower -- so his fast speed gives me that uneasy/off-balance feeling throughout, while he also knows where to pull back on the reigns.  Also, where are the lower strings of the RLPO in this movement.  They seem to lack a good bit of grunt.  In fact, I find a lack of body to the RLPO strings in general.  Finally, I'd like a little more thud from the timpani in spots. 

I generally like the Nacht2 in terms of overall tempi.  However, the solo violin is rather syrupy sounding. 
Scott

Offline barry guerrero

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Re: B.G. listens to Schwarz M7 (Artek) & Sinopoli/Dresden M4 (Profil)
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2008, 04:03:36 PM »
Yeah, that big portimento (slide) at the very start of Nachtmusik II takes some getting used to; to put it mildly.

Barry

Offline John Kim

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Re: B.G. listens to Schwarz M7 (Artek) & Sinopoli/Dresden M4 (Profil)
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2008, 04:55:59 PM »
My prior reference to the solo trumpet as "weak" is a poor choice of words.  The solo trumpet is quite good in the first movement, especially when it needs to be loud.  However, there are a few spots where the trumpet needs to be heard over a more hushed orchestra, and it does not make it out of the mix.  I am a bit hypersensitive to the solo trumpet here, because I found this to be a big problem for me in the Schwarz M9.  Really, though, the first two movements are quite good overall. 

I am rather bothered by the Scherzo movement.  Schwarz' general tempo is robotically fast, not really stopping to smell the roses enough.  Comparatively, Barenboim is both faster and slower -- so his fast speed gives me that uneasy/off-balance feeling throughout, while he also knows where to pull back on the reigns.  Also, where are the lower strings of the RLPO in this movement.  They seem to lack a good bit of grunt.  In fact, I find a lack of body to the RLPO strings in general.  Finally, I'd like a little more thud from the timpani in spots. 

I generally like the Nacht2 in terms of overall tempi.  However, the solo violin is rather syrupy sounding. 
Scott,

Where exactly do you find the trumpet weak in the 1st movt.? Can you give me locations of the places?

I don't recall trumpets weak in Schwarz's M9th either...

I don't dislike the violin solo in IV. at all. I think, on the contrary, it is rather apt for the start of the movt. that is, after all, a night music.

John,

Offline John Kim

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Re: B.G. listens to Schwarz M7 (Artek) & Sinopoli/Dresden M4 (Profil)
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2008, 07:05:34 PM »
I listened to the Schwarz/RLPO M7th again.

I am not going to change my original verdict on this one. By all accounts this is a superb M7th in fabulous sound. The playing isn't quite as refined as in the Barenboim but the sound has more warmth and ambiance. The recording is fairly close so you get to hear all the details - try the string glissando at 1'14" into the Scherzo movt but at the same time it could reveal any flaw or lack of refinement in the orchestra but that's really a minor thing in this recording.

John,

Offline sperlsco

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Re: B.G. listens to Schwarz M7 (Artek) & Sinopoli/Dresden M4 (Profil)
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2008, 07:44:13 PM »
Where exactly do you find the trumpet weak in the 1st movt.? Can you give me locations of the places?

I meant to put that in my last post, since I actually bothered to write down those instances where the solo trumpet struck me as lacking.  Of course, I couldn't find the note card when I needed it.  But here they are:

I - 8:50, 12:10, 13:00, 18:35  (all give or take a few seconds, since I was driving at the time)
V - 12:30

As I stated in the other thread, I like this performance a good bit -- just not as much as some of my other favorite ones.  The best thing about this discussion is that it has me doing a tour of my M7's!!  I'm even pulling out a few that I've listened to only once before (Waart, Leaper, Rattle/VPO/'95 Mahlerfest are all in my car now). 
Scott

 

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