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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: etucker82 on March 16, 2010, 05:28:35 AM
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...because the what if game is as fun as it is masochistic....feel free to disagree with any of this, obviously heavily weighted towards past generations because most conductors now record everything:
1: Celibidache
2: Mengelberg
3: Stokowski
4: Erich Kleiber
5: Carlos Kleiber
6: Klemperer
7: Munch
8: Furtwangler
DLVDE: Monteux
9: Koussevitsky
10: Scherchen
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I recall Klemperer saying somewhere that the Sixth was "a cosmos" but admitted he just couldn't get around to doing it...or something to that effect. Still, it's an interesting "what could've been."
Otherwise, the only recording I really ponder is a Bernstein M8 with New York, which would've been done in Dec. 1990 had he lived, (I think.) Too bad he couldn't have given up smoking.
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This is good stuff.
M2, M3 - Karajan
M4 - Bohm
M6 - Bohm, Klemperer
M9 - Davis (Colin)
DLVDE - Szell (though there exist pirate recordings)
Entire cycle - Thielemman! (I am not kidding :D)
John,
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Given the fantastic job Paavo Berglund and the Bournemouth Symphony made of Shostakovich 7 & 11 for EMI back in the '70s, I wish they had done M2 and M3.
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DLVDE - Szell (though there exist pirate recordings)
There is an official Szell/Cleveland DLvdE (with Janet Baker and Richard Lewis), available in the Cleveland Orchestra's expensive 75th Anniversary box (OOP). That box also contained, I believe, Szell's live 1970 Tokyo recording of Sibelius 2, surely the greatest recorded performance of anything I've ever heard.
There's also a pirate (off-air) Szell DLvdE (with Maureen Forrester and Richard Lewis) on Arkadia, in so-so sound, recorded a year or two before the one in the box.
James
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Walter: The rest of the symphonies he did NOT record (M3, M6, M7, M8)
Klemperer: The rest of the symphonies he did NOT record (M1, M3, M5, M6, M8)
Mitropoulos: The rest of the symphonies he did NOT record (M2, M4, M7)
Wade
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DLVDE - Szell (though there exist pirate recordings)
There is an official Szell/Cleveland DLvdE (with Janet Baker and Richard Lewis), available in the Cleveland Orchestra's expensive 75th Anniversary box (OOP). That box also contained, I believe, Szell's live 1970 Tokyo recording of Sibelius 2, surely the greatest recorded performance of anything I've ever heard.
There's also a pirate (off-air) Szell DLvdE (with Maureen Forrester and Richard Lewis) on Arkadia, in so-so sound, recorded a year or two before the one in the box.
James
I second. Szell's DLVDE was the greatest performance of this masterpiece I've ever heard. It's that simple.
John,
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I've always wanted a Charles Dutoit M7, especially with the Montreal Symphony. I'd also like more Blomstedt Mahler. His 2nd with San Fran was excellent.
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How about Rattle/BPO M7th? I bet that will be a pretty good combination for the piece.
But again, I am most curious about what Thielemann has to say about Mahler.
John,
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Sadly no chance for this:
Guilini - M6
but still a chance for these:
Levine - M2
Honeck - M3
Blomstedt - M5
Gilbert - M8
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I like Russ' choices. Myself, I would like to hear more Mahler from Antal Dorati. I would also like to hear Harnoncourt do the first
John, Thielemann doesn't like Mahler. Forget it (same is true for Harnoncout)
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Myself, I would like to hear more Mahler from Antal Dorati
When Dorati was music director of the Washington, DC National Symphony in the late '60's - 70's, I heard him perform all of the Mahler symphonies except nos. 7 & 8. I was in the chorus in his performances of the 2nd. All performances were excellent, though I do remember that the 6th was exceptional.
Wade
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Barry wrote:
"John, Thielemann doesn't like Mahler. Forget it"
Well, it's true that Thielemann has his problems with Mahler:
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/03/mahler-cycle-and-uncomfortable-silence.html
Nevertheless, during the 2010/2011 season of the Munich Philharmonic, he will conduct the M8, the Adagio of the 10th, a selection from Des Knaben Wunderhorn and five the Rueckert Lieder:
Symphonie Nr. 8 Es-Dur
Christian Thielemann, Dirigent
Adrianne Pieczonka, Sopran
Ricarda Merbeth, Sopran
Sibylla Rubens, Sopran
Lioba Braun, Mezzosopran
Birgit Remmert, Mezzosopran
Burkhard Fritz, Tenor
Roman Trekel, Bariton
Albert Dohmen, Bass
Philharmonischer Chor München
Einstudierung: Andreas Herrmann
Singverein der Gesellschaft der
Musikfreunde in Wien
Einstudierung: Johannes Prinz
Tölzer Knabenchor
Einstudierung: Gerhard Schmidt-Gaden
und Ralf Ludewig
Fr. 15.10.2010, 20:00 1. Abo h5
Einzelkarten ab Di. 31.08.2010
So. 17.10.2010, 19:00
Sonderkonzert
Einzelkarten ab Di. 30.03.2010
...........................................
Fünf Lieder für Sopran und Orchester
nach Texten von Friedrich Rückert
Christian Thielemann, Dirigent
Renée Fleming, Sopran
Do. 21.10.2010, 20:00 1. Abo b
Fr. 22.10.2010, 20:00 1. Abo c
So. 24.10.2010, 11:00 2. Abo m
Einzelkarten ab Di. 31.08.2010
.............................................
Ausgewählte Lieder aus
„Des Knaben Wunderhorn“
für Bariton und Orchester
Symphonie Nr. 10 „Adagio“
Christian Thielemann, Dirigent
Christian Gerhaher, Bariton
Mi. 18.05.2011, 20:00 7. Abo a
Do. 19.05.2011, 20:00 5. Abo e5
Sa. 21.05.2011, 19:00 5. Abo h5
So. 22.05.2011, 11:00 4. Abo k5
Einzelkarten ab Di. 01.02.2011
All these concerts conducted by Thielemann are part of a complete Mahler-cycle that will be held in Munich between 2010 and 2012:
http://www.mphil.de/mphil23/images/pdf/Mphil_JahresPRO_2010-2011_www.pdf
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Thanks, that's good to know. Nice thing to be wrong about.
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Well, it's true that Thielemann has his problems with Mahler:
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/03/mahler-cycle-and-uncomfortable-silence.html
For those who didn't read the fascinating post by Jens Laurson posted by GL, here's the reason Thielemann gave of his problem with conducting Mahler:
"Mahler’s music lends itself most to those conductors” Thielemann reflects, “who know how to hold back, who are good at understatement. That doesn’t exactly accommodate my conducting style; I’ve not been terribly successful at that yet. The music of Mahler is already so full of effects, if you are tempted to add anything, you only make it worse. I admire those conductors who achieve that certain noblesse—which is what I desire to achieve, eventually. Not always to enhance something. I’m currently trying to wean myself off that in Strauss, actually…”"
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Well, it's true that Thielemann has his problems with Mahler:
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/03/mahler-cycle-and-uncomfortable-silence.html
For those who didn't read the fascinating post by Jens Laurson posted by GL, here's the reason Thielemann gave of his problem with conducting Mahler:
"Mahler’s music lends itself most to those conductors” Thielemann reflects, “who know how to hold back, who are good at understatement. That doesn’t exactly accommodate my conducting style; I’ve not been terribly successful at that yet. The music of Mahler is already so full of effects, if you are tempted to add anything, you only make it worse. I admire those conductors who achieve that certain noblesse—which is what I desire to achieve, eventually. Not always to enhance something. I’m currently trying to wean myself off that in Strauss, actually…”"
I don't quite follow his argument. As Tennstedt once said, Mahler's music requires "exaggerations". Understatement kills Mahler's music. I know Mr. Thielemann is known for unusual treatments of German repertoire and that's why I hoped you will tackle Mahler someday. Sounds like he thinks Mahler should be conducted a la Szell.
John,
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How about
Lenny/NYPO M10 Carpenter ed.?? ;D ;D :D
Oh, we also need Abbado's DLVDE someday.
John,
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Concerning Thielemann's interview, John wrote:
"I don't quite follow his argument."
Perhaps, Thielemann means something like what Jansons says in the following interview:
http://mahler.universaledition.com/mariss-jansons-on-mahler/
When asked: "Is there a danger of overpowering Mahler?" (Min. 7:04) Jansons replied recalling his father saying: "Never put, please, sugar to honey: it's too sweet".
The mathematical relationship between the timing of different sections of a movement I have experienced in his M7 and M3 (this last live at the Concertgebouw last February, 4, an highly rewarding experience), is one of Jansons' conducting/interpreting features I particullary enjoy, because he gives me the feeling of the unfolding of a clear and transparent musical discourse.
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How about
Lenny/NYPO M10 Carpenter ed.?? ;D ;D :D
John,
Bernstein went on record as saying that beyond the 1st movement Adagio, anyone's attempt to "complete" or to make "performing versions", are or would not represent an authentic statement as being "Mahler" due to the incompleteness of various sections of the remaining movements needing to be merged as valid movement entities, plus the orchestration. That's why we have no recording or known performances by him of the remaining movements, save the Adagio.
Wade
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How about
Lenny/NYPO M10 Carpenter ed.?? ;D ;D :D
John,
Bernstein went on record as saying that beyond the 1st movement Adagio, anyone's attempt to "complete" or to make "performing versions", are or would not represent an authentic statement as being "Mahler" due to the incompleteness of various sections of the remaining movements needing to be merged as valid movement entities, plus the orchestration. That's why we have no recording or known performances by him of the remaining movements, save the Adagio.
Wade
I know, but it would have been great if he had tackled and recorded a complete M10th, nonetheless. Would it not?
John,
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As to the above, my sentiments exactly. I would have loved to have heard his take on the final movement of the completed M10.
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I also want
Ozawa/BSO or SKO DLVDE & a full M10th
I once heard Ozawa's live DLVDE with BSO. It was the most beautiful and the most detailed performance I ever heard.
John,
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I can think of many many *many* conductors who I wish had never recorded Mahler, and quite a few who I wish had stopped with one recording of each symphony.
:-X
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I'd like to know which are the recordings that should never have been made.
Can barely think of a combination that wouldn't have something in it; but then every person has their interesting side.
The first few that occur to me.
Furtwangler in the symphonies.
Oscar Fried in decent sound.
Mitropoulos in the 7th.
Ernest Borsamsky in the rest after his rather good no.1
I thoroughly enjoyed Mark Gorenstein in the 5th [he conducts the Russian State]; so him in the rest.
Toscanini and cantelli in any/all.
And Mravinsky and Silvestri.
Horenstein in 2 and 5; both exist but haven't made it to commercial recordings yet.
Walter and Klemperer when middle-aged.
And for real fantasy stuff, Mahler himself conducting orchestras.
And me. [I'm pretty good; in my head. lol].
Ivor
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The first few that occur to me:
Furtwangler in the symphonies.
Oscar Fried in decent sound.
Mitropoulos in the 7th.
Ernest Borsamsky in the rest after his rather good no.1
I thoroughly enjoyed Mark Gorenstein in the 5th [he conducts the Russian State]; so him in the rest.
Toscanini and cantelli in any/all.
And Mravinsky and Silvestri.
Horenstein in 2 and 5; both exist but haven't made it to commercial recordings yet.
Walter and Klemperer when middle-aged.
And for real fantasy stuff, Mahler himself conducting orchestras.
Ivor
Furtwangler likely knew about the symphonies, but for career (and likely racial as well) reasons, never had any desire to conduct them.
It would have been good if Fried had waited until electrical recording came about to delay his recording of M2. However, with his death in 1940 or 41, we wouldn't have gotten any Mahler recording by him in decent sound, considering he emigrated to the Soviet Union.
M7 is one I believe I quoted earlier that Mitropoulos should have recorded.
Can't comment on Borsamsky, Silvestri or Gorenstein, though Silvestri might have been interesting.
Toscanini and Mahler disliked each other intensely when the former came to New York about 1908 (I think) as a Metropolitan Opera conductor; it only portends that he should have disliked Mahler's compositional output as well. With Toscanini later in life taking on Cantelli as protege, he would certainly have communicated his dislike for Mahler's output to Cantelli; therefore no Mahler recordings (much less performances) by either man.
Can't comment on Mravinsky, and don't know if there is any documentation on his like/dislike of Mahler. Maybe Mravinsky's student, Yuri Temirkanov, could say whether or not Mravinsky liked/disliked Mahler. Temirkanov certainly does, as I've heard him conduct M2 live.
Someday, we'll have M2 and M5 by Horenstein (likely after our lifetimes?).
The 1938 M9 by Walter was conducted by Walter when he was middle-aged. About the only significant Mahler document by him from that period. No one wanted to perform Mahler during those times for career, racial, political, aesthetic, and economic reasons.
I think Mahler would have liked to record his works once the technology had reached a decent point where most every instrument in the orchestra could have been heard (i.e., electrical, no acoustic recordings, and no instrumental substitutions or deletions). Those piano rolls he recorded are likely his preference as to how he wanted those particular pieces to go (at least from tempi and dynamic viewpoints).
Wade
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Furtwangler likely knew about the symphonies, but for career (and likely racial as well) reasons, never had any desire to conduct them.
Furtwangler conducted various Lieder as well as the first four symphonies plus DLVDE in the 1920s.
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Furtwangler conducted various Lieder as well as the first four symphonies plus DLVDE in the 1920s.
Got any details about the performances, if available?
Wade
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Got any details about the performances, if available?
Wade
Not first hand! ;)
Here's the site where I got the specifics:
http://www.furtwangler.net/conductor.html#perform
The two pdfs "The Learning Years" and "The Glorious Period" list every concert he did....there's more Mahler than I would have expected.
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Regarding performances after Mahler's death and before the centenary, here's a partial list of conductors of Mahler performances:-
In the US,
Stokowski
Arthr Bodansky
Karl Muck
Rodzinski
Koussevitsky
Erno Rapee
Ormandy.
In the USSR
Fritz Stiedry
Albert Coates
Talich
Rakhlin
Mravinsky
Anosov
Eliasberg
In the UK
Boult,
Karl Rankl
Fistoulari
Basil cameron
Henry Wood
plus Konoe in Japan, who recorded the first ever 4th.
Lastly, Oscar Fried performed the 9th with the BBCSO in 1935. Come to think of it Webern did the 6th with the BBC in the early 30s.
All that information is taken from The Mmahler Companion, ed. Donald Mitchell and Andrew Nicholson.
So there wasn't a thorough lack of Mahler conductors in that period.
Ivor
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I'd love to see a Rattle/Berlin M6...if his M9 is any indicator, it should be a smashing (no pun intended) success.
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I'd love to see a Rattle/Berlin M6...if his M9 is any indicator, it should be a smashing (no pun intended) success.
I have a radio recording of a performance of him with the combined Berlin/Vienna Philhamonics from a few years back (might've been his birthday), that I can upload if you're interested.
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Definitely...I'd love to hear that one!
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Definitely...I'd love to hear that one!
As promised: M6 - Rattle.mp2 (http://rapidshare.com/files/403209695/M6_-_Rattle.mp2.html)
The performance was not on Rattle's birthday as I initially thought to remember but of a festival in Vienna where it was played. I left the German announcement at the begin (I recorded it from Ö1, Austrian Radio). No detail is revealed as to what parts of the two orchestras were combined (surely not all players).
Enjoy and report back!
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There was also a live Rattle/BPO M6 from 1987 that was originally part of a special BPO live box set (a live broadcast had been available via a pirate label for many years previously). It was finally given it's own official elease several years ago:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Symphony-No-6-Gustav/dp/3898162680/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1270141505&sr=1-1
Steele
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As promised: M6 - BPh-WPh-Rattle.zip (http://rapidshare.com/files/370538570/M6_-_BPh-WPh-Rattle.zip)
Thanks very much, Zoltan!
James
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Wow! Thanks for the upload Zoltan!
--Todd
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I've been listening to Celibidache's EMI recordings of the Bruckner 8 & 9 ((from the mid-1990's) the last couple of days, and was wondering how he would have done with Mahler, particularly the M9, M2, and perhaps the M6 and M10 Adagio. Of course by that time in his career, his interpretations had gotten REALLY SLOW, but I find them very fascinating, and the Bruckners at least have a wonderful glow and intensity that (for me) make up for any lack of speed. I don't believe he did much Mahler (and almost certainly not that late in his career), but I think it would have been interesting to hear. I see that the OP already listed Celi for M1, but I think the ones I mentioned would be better suited to his late-career style.
Russell
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Being back to the main topic:
V. Talich (with the Czech Philharmonic): M4, 5, 6, 7, 9, Das Lied (Actually, he used to conduct Mahler, during the 1930s, especially in Sweden, but it seems that no recording survived).
More Mahler by Mackerras (with the Czech Philhaemonic) and not only Symphonies (I'd like to hear what he'd make of Wunderhornlieder).
L.
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I've been listening to Celibidache's EMI recordings of the Bruckner 8 & 9 ((from the mid-1990's) the last couple of days, and was wondering how he would have done with Mahler, particularly the M9, M2, and perhaps the M6 and M10 Adagio. Of course by that time in his career, his interpretations had gotten REALLY SLOW, but I find them very fascinating, and the Bruckners at least have a wonderful glow and intensity that (for me) make up for any lack of speed. I don't believe he did much Mahler (and almost certainly not that late in his career), but I think it would have been interesting to hear. I see that the OP already listed Celi for M1, but I think the ones I mentioned would be better suited to his late-career style.
Russell
I can't find a quote readily, but I'm fairly certain Celi detested Mahler. The What-Ifs are fascinating, but in his case, someone evidently would have had to do some heavy behavior modification to get him to change him mind on Mahler. Oh well, we can always dream...