gustavmahlerboard.com
General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: Leo K on April 16, 2010, 09:53:20 PM
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(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FlQkJUjpL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Norrington's M9...
Anybody heard the sound quality yet?
Here are the timings:
26:02
14:06
12:38
19:24
As a fan of his M2 I'm thinking of getting this sometime. Looks like April 27, 2010 is the release date.
--Todd
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Oh man, did Dave Hurwitz fry this thing in REALLY hot oil! It's too long to cut & paste, so just read the featured article about it. It's listed on the home page of Classicstoday.
Barry
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Thanks Barry! I shall take a look. Usually I love the stuff Dave hates so his review is appreciated.
:P :-* :D
--Todd
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Just finished Dave's article on this new recording and it was interesting regarding the vibrato controversy. I like the sound of Norrington's mostly vibratoless M2 so I can't wait to try this new recording to hear for myself.
Strange how his criticism uses words like "dumb" in the title and he even speaks of a "teenage hooker" to descibe a "Norrington" portameno? I read no critical content on that level of word choice, especially since he doesn't back his colorful description with critical balance, and he sure loves to categorize listeners with a derogatory tone, hence, I can't trust his reviews in terms of a recording's quality. Indeed, DH has more of an axe to grind then Norrington does.
-Todd
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I heard the first 3 movts. of the live recording on radio. I rather liked them. Nothing wrong, but there wasn't really anything special either, except that you get the music done swiftly. But, it's been sometime ago.
John,
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A 19 minute and 24 second Adagio seems way too fast for me, but heck, if I can get a copy...I would like to hear it. I heard the live Norrington recording and was not too impressed, but I'm opening to another go.
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Sound samples can be heard here:
http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-9/dp/B003CNIYUU/ref=sr_shvl_album_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1271624459&sr=301-1
I will hold my comments until after I hear that Adagio in its entirety. I can say though that I still think a 19-minute fourth movement is too fast. It is a very emotionless interpretation, from what I can hear--having no vibrato makes a big difference.
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I posted a link to the live broadcast back in February (recorded from the radio). Here it is for those who didn't catch it at the time: Download (http://rapidshare.com/files/143054959/M9-Norrington.mp3).
It wasn't in a subscription concert (like the other symphonies) but in a one-off performance (so I'd guess there weren't even mulitple takes for the release, only patch-ups from rehearsal perhaps?), and since I feared the worst for the finale, I didn't go to listen to it in the concert hall. After trying to listen to the performance, I could stand it only for a minute. Haven't tried since then ...
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Luckley, it appears this release is pretty cheap, at least on Amazon...I'm very interested in hearing the 19 minute adagio myself, as I'm very up for different M9's with all shapes and colors, especially as I have plenty of M9's to choose from already! 8) :o ;D
And thanks Zoltan.
--Todd
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I'm really impressed by the sound samples...I just love that string sound here...gosh I can't wait for this one.
--Todd
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Todd:
Let us please be clear about something. You don't have to like my tone, or anything else about my discussion of Norrington, but there's a big difference between whether or not you, or I, or anyone else likes something, and how the performer presents his work to the public as a representation of the composer's evident intentions. Certainly you have the right to enjoy whatever your choose, and I truly wish you as much pleasure as listening to different interpretations, including Norrington's, gives you.
However, a principal issue with this performance is that Norrington doesn't simply come out and say "I hate vibrato and so I'm not using it, and if you don't like it, too bad." Just the opposite. He attempts to validate his approach objectively, by claiming that (a) Mahler never wanted vibrato or heard it used in the modern way, and (b) the 1938 Bruno Walter Mahler Ninth "proves" that the Vienna Phil did not use vibrato until sometime later. Both of these contentions are flat-out wrong, and the evidence in this regard is irrefutable and overwhelming. So Norrington either hasn't done his homework, or he has done it and he's lying to the public. Either way, he is falsifying Mahler's patent intentions. As a result of building his interpretation around this single issue (which is his stated intention, and not my characterization), there are numerous consequences relative to issues such as tempo, balance, and dynamics equally contrary to Mahler's clear directions, and I discuss several of them.
No one need care about this as much as I do--I enjoy plenty of strange and sometimes perverse performances (think about lots of Stokowski for example), but you won't find any of those artists saying "in doing whatever the hell I please I am following the composer's stated intentions in line with historical precedent." There is a fundamental dishonesty to Norrington's approach that I find very objectionable. As a listener, your job is simply to enjoy what pleases you, and you may or may not consider any broader issues. As a critic, it is my job to point out to potential purchasers why the claims made for a particular performance may not be true, why the basis for an interpretation that the artist himself specifically asks us to consider may in fact be false, and how well any performance realizes what the composer requests, to the extent we know what that is.
The world of music performance is, as I'm sure you would agree, extremely subjective in so many ways. That is why I think it is so important that performers be mindful of those facts we can establish (even if they then take issue with them or adopt a different approach). It shows a basic and very necessary respect for the integrity of the work being performed. Otherwise, the result is a circus, and Norrington shows this quite clearly.
Best regards,
Dave H
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Todd:
Let us please be clear about something. You don't have to like my tone, or anything else about my discussion of Norrington, but there's a big difference between whether or not you, or I, or anyone else likes something, and how the performer presents his work to the public as a representation of the composer's evident intentions. Certainly you have the right to enjoy whatever your choose, and I truly wish you as much pleasure as listening to different interpretations, including Norrington's, gives you.
However, a principal issue with this performance is that Norrington doesn't simply come out and say "I hate vibrato and so I'm not using it, and if you don't like it, too bad." Just the opposite. He attempts to validate his approach objectively, by claiming that (a) Mahler never wanted vibrato or heard it used in the modern way, and (b) the 1938 Bruno Walter Mahler Ninth "proves" that the Vienna Phil did not use vibrato until sometime later. Both of these contentions are flat-out wrong, and the evidence in this regard is irrefutable and overwhelming. So Norrington either hasn't done his homework, or he has done it and he's lying to the public. Either way, he is falsifying Mahler's patent intentions. As a result of building his interpretation around this single issue (which is his stated intention, and not my characterization), there are numerous consequences relative to issues such as tempo, balance, and dynamics equally contrary to Mahler's clear directions, and I discuss several of them.
No one need care about this as much as I do--I enjoy plenty of strange and sometimes perverse performances (think about lots of Stokowski for example), but you won't find any of those artists saying "in doing whatever the hell I please I am following the composer's stated intentions in line with historical precedent." There is a fundamental dishonesty to Norrington's approach that I find very objectionable. As a listener, your job is simply to enjoy what pleases you, and you may or may not consider any broader issues. As a critic, it is my job to point out to potential purchasers why the claims made for a particular performance may not be true, why the basis for an interpretation that the artist himself specifically asks us to consider may in fact be false, and how well any performance realizes what the composer requests, to the extent we know what that is.
The world of music performance is, as I'm sure you would agree, extremely subjective in so many ways. That is why I think it is so important that performers be mindful of those facts we can establish (even if they then take issue with them or adopt a different approach). It shows a basic and very necessary respect for the integrity of the work being performed. Otherwise, the result is a circus, and Norrington shows this quite clearly.
Best regards,
Dave H
Dave,
Thanks for the reply and I understand what you are saying now...you are right when it comes to Norrington's false claim of Mahler's intentions for performance practice and I didn't even think of that angle when I wrote the above. It indeed would be better if Norrington would just admit he doesn't like vibrato (which seems obvious) instead of claiming what he does. So, when I listen now I will balance this consideration with the outcome of the performance.
So thanks again!
--Todd
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I'm not sure if it's okay to open up an old topic again but....
No vibrato?!? ??? I can't imagine it being possible to play this symphony without any. Is it even recognizable, let alone believable? Is there a link with samples by chance?
(Why do conductors take Mahler to extremes when it is not called for just to prove a point?)
On a side note, it's a coincidence that Stokowski was mentioned above- I'm playing his orchestral arrangement of Toccata & Fugue in D minor at the second.
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No vibrato?!? ??? I can't imagine it being possible to play this symphony without any. Is it even recognizable, let alone believable? Is there a link with samples by chance?
You get the whole of M9 to sample (I'd recommend you start with the last movement)! It's a live radio broadcast:
http://gustavmahlerboard.com/forum/index.php?topic=1299.msg10047#msg10047
Yes, it is recognizable (but only that).
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I think there is very few to say. Given the results, to campaign for playing Mahler's music "vibrato free" is only a means to gain notoriety by exploiting the name of Mahler.
Luca
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I took your advice Zoltan and listened to it, starting with the last movement.... my favorite symphony was totally botched. No thanks, I'll stick to other recordings.
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I took your advice Zoltan and listened to it, starting with the last movement.... my favorite symphony was totally botched. No thanks, I'll stick to other recordings.
So you can imagine my frustration when I listen to Norrington's "interpretation" live (this Friday it's going to be Bruckner's 9th)! I still can't bring myself to listen to this one. It wasn't a regular subscription concert so I missed it, but next year Mahler's 9th will be Norrington's last concert as a chief conductor ... I probably won't be applauding (which he'll probably see, since I'm sitting in the fourth row). It's not that he doesn't bring interesting ideas to music, but his insistence on playing vibrato free overshadows them all.
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Live? Ouch. Poor Bruckner...
On the bright side, maybe his replacement will accept standard string technique? I can understand some people saying "I want to play Bach with an older bow" or something comparatively small like that but to take a practice that is basic to modern string playing and perform a big, romantic symphony without it is simply ignoring things you can't change. Not to mention that he did a horrible job justifying it in what I read online.
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It is going to be Stephane Deneve as of 2011/12 (who's with the Royal Scottish National Orch. now).
I would have liked Thomas Dausgaard more though, since I am interested in getting to know more Nordic composers (Langgaard for example) and he gave a very passionate account of Rachmaninoff's Second Symphony.
Norrington's Bruckner has some interesting ideas, like having faster tempi like Horenstein and Walter did (and Harnoncourt does nowadays), but, as someone wrote: 'If the beginning of the Seventh is sounding like "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" then I don't care for it'. And the vibratoless playing simply makes it dull.
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I took your advice Zoltan and listened to it, starting with the last movement.... my favorite symphony was totally botched. No thanks, I'll stick to other recordings.
... next year Mahler's 9th will be Norrington's last concert as a chief conductor ... I probably won't be applauding (which he'll probably see, since I'm sitting in the fourth row). It's not that he doesn't bring interesting ideas to music, but his insistence on playing vibrato free overshadows them all.
The great italian director Federico Fellini remembered that, in Rome, still during the 1940s, when the audience did not like a show, some spectators threw a dead cat on the stage...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiCi_QrbrPE
L.
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A dead cat would be too gross for me and unrespectful. Hm, tomatoes? ;) Nah, I think I will be able to show that I might respect his opinion even when I disagree by just not clapping.
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A dead cat would be too gross for me and unrespectful. Hm, tomatoes? ;) Nah, I think I will be able to show that I might respect his opinion even when I disagree by just not clapping.
I can't imagine Mr. Norrington like Alvaro Vitali, that is to say pulling back the cat to the audience while replying: "Have you thrown me your lunch?" Moreover, I suspect that throw dead cats could be considered a crime...
However, I noticed a difference between the audience of opera and the one of concerts: the former is used to boo and to hiss very often (especially against directors), while the latter seems too passive. A little more passion even in concert halls would be healthy.
Luca
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However, I noticed a difference between the audience of opera and the one of concerts: the former is used to boo and to hiss very often (especially against directors), while the latter seems too passive. A little more passion even in concert halls would be healthy.
I wholeheartedly agree with you!
I don't clap for example when there's a piece of Wolfgang Rihm, and *especially* not when the composer is present and comes on the stage (the Stuttgart concert-going audience can take quite a lot of such "music"). I hope he saw me every time!
I remember two boos in the past five years. One was after Mahler's 5th and the other after a Wagner piece (one of the orchestral preludes or interludes in his operas), both with Norrington as conductor.
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Just heard this M9. I'm now ready: bring on M8 with OVPP. :'(
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Pardon my ignorance but what's OVPP?
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Pardon my ignorance but what's OVPP?
I believe he means "One Voice Per Part."
James
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Well, I have to admit, I've only heard the first movement of the Norrington M9 and have felt no desire to listen to the rest. I will try to finish listening to the near future.
After reading the liners to this release I immediately wanted to hear the 1938 Walter/VPO M9 again, and when I did I was blown away. When I went back to the Norrington, the comparison was almost painful.
--Todd