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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: GL on June 23, 2010, 12:57:17 PM
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A documentary/film based on memoirs of N. Bauer Lechner will be broadcast in Austria, Switzerland and Germany in the following days:
Austria
Monday 28.06.10 at 23:15 in ORF2
Tuesday 29.06.10 at 02:30 in ORF2 (WH)
Tuesday 26.10.10 in ORF2
Switzerland
4:07:10 Thursday at 23:00 in SF1
11:07:10 Sunday at 5:35 in SF1 (WH)
Germany
Saturday 4:09:10 20.15 clock in 3sat
01:11:10 Monday in Bayrischen Rundfunk
Regards,
Luca
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The film is obviously "auf Deutsch" (which I can understand a bit and have tried to keep up with in opera and oratorio after taking it in college many years ago). If an English dubbing becomes available, please let us know.
Thanks, Wade
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Usually this kind of film / documentary is not dubbed. When they come out on DVD, if they come out, then subtitles (almost always in English, sometimes in French) are provided. A clear example is this one:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gustav-Mahler-Live-Will-Region/dp/B00000JMP5/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1277316203&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.de/Gustav-Mahler-Sterben-werd-leben/dp/B000077VOM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1277316312&sr=1-1
I will keep an eye on a possible DVD release. In the meantime, if anyone watch it on TV, I would be glad to read his/her opinions about it on this forum.
Regards,
Luca
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Something to read for the them who know German and some pics to watch for the others:
http://tv.orf.at/program/orf2/20100628/485294401/294007/
http://www.sendungen.sf.tv/stars/Nachrichten/Archiv/2010/06/08/Uebersicht/Stars-Gustav-Mahler
Regards,
Luca
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That looks intriguing! I'd love to hear reviews on it seeing as it will not be broadcast here.
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Using the Bauer-Lechner angle is a good idea, since she chronicled very precisely what he had said to her regarding music. It's a pity that Mahler didn't fancy her, but such are the ways of the heart.
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Saw it and recorded it. What I'd *really* like to know is how much of it our really her words in the many voiceovers which sound as if she's reading aloud her diary entries. For example:'Mahler wanted 500 performers for "Das klagende Lied"'.
There are also scenes from their encounters which probably aren't all true for dramatic purposes (the info on the ORF site said the maker, Beate Thalberg, worked on it for three years): The first appearance of Alma is very dramatic for example and it's a "fantasy scene" (she just appears from a lightning and Mahler crashes from his bicycle) alluding to the fact that the three met at the Atterse (according to the ORF site).
Is somebody interested? I might be able to upload it (though it's DVD-quality, so it'll be quite big a file).
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Apart from the dramatic elements (which are more or less expected when telling a person's life on television), was it mostly accurate? You can probably find some of her writings online and compare.
Also...I'm now a junior member! ;D
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Apart from the dramatic elements (which are more or less expected when telling a person's life on television), was it mostly accurate? You can probably find some of her writings online and compare.
It's much easier to say for me, that I didn't consider much of what Natalie says in the documentation to be false on first hearing. But let me try to do what you ask for ...
The line "I cannot marry you. I can only marry a beautiful woman." is apparently something that we know from Alma (see here (http://www.mahlerfest.org/mfXV/essay.htm)) and out not from Natalie. Yet, we see the dramatic moment her asking him to marry (with the voice-over from Natalie).
The diaries of Natalie (what's left of them) are in the possesion of de La Grange and he's mentioned in the credits, so I would gather (together with the three year period of preparing and making this film) that Beate Thalberg had more insight, than what we could know from the published source from Natalie's diaries.
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Saw it and recorded it. What I'd *really* like to know is how much of it our really her words in the many voiceovers which sound as if she's reading aloud her diary entries. For example:'Mahler wanted 500 performers for "Das klagende Lied"'.
There are also scenes from their encounters which probably aren't all true for dramatic purposes (the info on the ORF site said the maker, Beate Thalberg, worked on it for three years): The first appearance of Alma is very dramatic for example and it's a "fantasy scene" (she just appears from a lightning and Mahler crashes from his bicycle) alluding to the fact that the three met at the Atterse (according to the ORF site).
Is somebody interested? I might be able to upload it (though it's DVD-quality, so it'll be quite big a file).
I could be interested.
Among Alma's writings, I think the only source that is reliable as much as Bauer-Lechner's, is her diaries.
First meeting between Gustav and Alma, according to her diary:
"Tuesday, 11 July 1899
...We were just leaving Gosaumuehle when Mahler rode towards us on his bicycle, behind him an old woman [presumably N. Bauer-Lechner], followed by his sister and [Arnold] Rosé. I cycled past as quick as a flash. The Geringers dismounted, the others too. Mahler asked if this was the roas to Hallstatt. Christine said it wasn't, and offered to show him the way. By this time I was riding more slowly. they caught up with me and said: "Mahler is following us."
He soon caught up with us, and rode alongside about four or five times. every time, he struck up a conversation. Shortly before Hallstatt he dismounted. We were pushing our bikes, and he started up another conversation, staring hard at me. I jumped onto my bike and rode off into the distance. the Geringers were amgry: they'd wanted to introduce me, and he was expecting it too... Anyway, I felt absolutely no urge to meet him. I love and honour him as an artist, but as a man he doesn't interest me at all..."
There were other meetings in Vienna (while walking on the street, at the restaurant Hartmann, at the Prater ..., all recorded in Alma's diary) before the famous evening at the Zuckerkandls'.
The extract I quoted comes from the book: Gustav Mahler, Letters to His Wife, Faber and Faber:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gustav-Mahler-Letters-his-Wife/dp/0571212042/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278418134&sr=1-1
Regards,
Luca
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The film is obviously "auf Deutsch"
hi there, as I am the filmmaker, I can tell you that Unitel classica will distribute the film worldwide and prepares an English version. A DVD will come out, I do not know yet when. Thanks for your posting. It´s always very interesting to read comments on films, you´ve made.
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What I'd *really* like to know is how much of it our really her words in the many voiceovers which sound as if she's reading aloud her diary entries.
May the filmmaker sail in? 70 per cent of the words are her´s. Sometimes I put a long sentence into 3 sentences. then her diary is written language, I respected very much her words, beautiful words by the way, just "Tintenfischl" is such a wonderful neologism, but sometimes I diversified the word order. some sentences I took out of her book "Fragmente", that she published in 1907.
The first appearance of Alma is very dramatic for example and it's a "fantasy scene" (she just appears from a lightning and Mahler crashes from his bicycle) alluding to the fact that the three met at the Atterse (according to the ORF site).
exactly. I extended the fact, that they have met at the Attersee to a dramatic moment. As much as I followed the lifes of historic personalities as it is reported, I also made a film wich needs dramatization. I didn´t pretend: this is true, I did the opposite with a special artifice: the glow-light which characterises a certain "meta level", a vision, as you correctly recognized.
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The line "I cannot marry you. I can only marry a beautiful woman." is apparently something that we know from Alma
Oh, Zoltan, that´s true, but obviously you misunderstood, that in the film Natalie says shortly before Almas words, read by another female voice: "Alma Mahler rumoured the story like this:". So I marked Almas words as Almas words. This part is, by the way, an unpublished and later cancelled one in the original script of her memoirs. I was happy to be allowed to read that document due to the generosity of the owner of it, Mr. Henry-Louis de La Grange.
The diaries of Natalie (what's left of them) are in the possession of de La Grange and he's mentioned in the credits, so I would gather (together with the three year period of preparing and making this film) that Beate Thalberg had more insight, than what we could know from the published source from Natalie's diaries.
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yes, I could read the original diaries, 9 are left, they badly need to be looked up by scientists. I couldn´t find one scientifical work about Natalie or Gustav and Natalie. She is only mentioned, a footnote. Zoltan, thank you very much for your posting.
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While we are on the subject of Mahler film biographies, does anyone know if a remastered version of the Ken Russell 1974 film will be reissued any time soon? It's been out of print (at least here in the U.S.) for quite some time now.
Wade
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"Yes, I could read the original diaries, 9 are left, they badly need to be looked up by scientists."
Does La Grange own the 9 diaries or are they in the possesion of somebody else?
Also, I haven't seen the Russell film because it is out of print but from what I've heard it's a bit out there. Any opinions on it?
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I love it, and I think it's far closer to the truth than many are willing to admit.
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If it's out of print, are there still old copies floating around or on you tube? Unfortunately I just checked my library system and they don't seem to have a copy. There must be some news about a reissue online...
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The line "I cannot marry you. I can only marry a beautiful woman." is apparently something that we know from Alma
Oh, Zoltan, that´s true, but obviously you misunderstood, that in the film Natalie says shortly before Almas words, read by another female voice: "Alma Mahler rumoured the story like this:".
Indeed! I wasn't in the room for a minute and came back when I heard Natalie's voice and saw the moment played out on screen.
As you can see from the responses here, I'm very grateful for this documentation since Natalie was writing up Gustav's words, which allows us to see what went through in his mind (as far is he himself could know) while writing his music. A unique angle which was lost to (or got corrupted by) Alma, from what I know.
In the film, one can feel how much of the tension relies on the expression of Natalie's character as the unrequited love looms over the scenes. Is it something that Natalie described in her diaries as well, or is it only a general feeling through the use of certain words?
What I also learnt is her sad fate, in that she was arrested because of her anti-war sentiments and died 1921 (probably not in prison?).
I'm a member of the IGMG and if I could make it to the yearly assembly, perhaps one could initiate a research into the diaries. And de La Grange would certainly support such a research as well! But I'm not a musicologist ...
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If I had known that you're all so interested to see Russel's film as well, I could have recorded that too. It was just after the documentation. I saw the opening scene, which I found just too strange (the woman in the white cocoon being "born" -- Mahler's dreams), and since it was already past midnight, I didn't watch the rest.
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I love it, and I think it's far closer to the truth than many are willing to admit.
Indeed, Russell's movie is not biographically reliable, but it is close to the truth because it captures many sides of the spirit of Mahler's art.
A 2005 release (region free, no subtitles) should be still available in UK:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B0007D5GBS/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&qid=1278677532&sr=1-1&condition=all
L.
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The film is obviously "auf Deutsch"
hi there, as I am the filmmaker, I can tell you that Unitel classica will distribute the film worldwide and prepares an English version. A DVD will come out, I do not know yet when. Thanks for your posting. It´s always very interesting to read comments on films, you´ve made.
Very good, MeineZeit!
Keep us informed about this release, please.
Since you "lived" three years within Mahler's circle, would like to share your opinions about him, his friends, his art?
Thanks in advance!
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Zoltan,
Natalie died in poverty but at least out of prison. During her last years he had also some mental problems. According to De La Grange, her nephew and only heir destroyed part of her mahleriana manuscripts. It would be interesting to know from MeineZeit something about the integrity of the daries she was allowed to consult.
I'm not sure De La Grange will allow musicologists to research among Natalie's papers. As far as I know from his epic (voll. 2,3,4 of the English version) Mahler biography and from other sources, he has used previously unpublished part useful for the purposes of his work but he does not seem inclined to allow the publication of the full manuscript in order to protect the privacy of Natalie. Perhaps, the fact he allowed MeineZeit to read all the daries is a sign of a change of attitude, but, as I wrote, I can't take it for sure.
I just finished reading the latest issue (the 60th) of News about Mahler reserarch and I do not think N. Bauer-Lechner is among the priorities of the Gesellschaft.
Best regards,
Luca
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I'm not sure De La Grange will allow musicologists to research among Natalie's papers. As far as I know from his epic (voll. 2,3,4 of the English version) Mahler biography and from other sources, he has used previously unpublished part useful for the purposes of his work but he does not seem inclined to allow the publication of the full manuscript in order to protect the privacy of Natalie. Perhaps, the fact he allowed MeineZeit to read all the daries is a sign of a change of attitude, but, as I wrote, I can't take it for sure.
Hm, I'm not sure I'm understanding that. We're talking about even what Mahler ate, so in what way is Bauer-Lechner's privacy in danger?
I just finished reading the latest issue (the 60th) of News about Mahler reserarch and I do not think N. Bauer-Lechner is among the priorities of the Gesellschaft.
Hm, I have to check it, but I think #59 is the last I got ... Nevertheless, there's still a chance that a PhD work might be done about the topic which could sparkle interest. I know the IGMG hasn't got the money for bigger undertakings (as we can see how fast they are with printing the critical edition) ...
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I'm not sure De La Grange will allow musicologists to research among Natalie's papers. As far as I know from his epic (voll. 2,3,4 of the English version) Mahler biography and from other sources, he has used previously unpublished part useful for the purposes of his work but he does not seem inclined to allow the publication of the full manuscript in order to protect the privacy of Natalie. Perhaps, the fact he allowed MeineZeit to read all the daries is a sign of a change of attitude, but, as I wrote, I can't take it for sure.
Hm, I'm not sure I'm understanding that. We're talking about even what Mahler ate, so in what way is Bauer-Lechner's privacy in danger?
I just finished reading the latest issue (the 60th) of News about Mahler research and I do not think N. Bauer-Lechner is among the priorities of the Gesellschaft.
Hm, I have to check it, but I think #59 is the last I got ... Nevertheless, there's still a chance that a PhD work might be done about the topic which could sparkle interest. I know the IGMG hasn't got the money for bigger undertakings (as we can see how fast they are with printing the critical edition) ...
Since the focus is on Mahler, he was not spared nothing (I'm thinking about the chapters of the biography dedicated to his marriage and to Alma's daries). With Bauer-Lechner, de La Grange's attitude is different: he reports all that she has to say about Mahler's life and works, avoiding all the passages concerning her feelings, her intimacy, her deep suffering. De La Grange seems to suggest that we know all that is possible to know about Mahler by Natalie and I'm inclined to trust him because he is a man of great integrity.
We see what he will have to say about Natalie when he first introduce her in the latest volume (#1) of the biography that should be release during the current Mahler Jubilee.
I received my copy of the #60 on July, 2. The first 3 articles are from the "Toblach Mahler Talks 2008: Mahler and the Sound of his Time" (among the others I found interesting the one of Knud Martner about a singer that was Mahler's fellow tenant in Prague and the one of Elisabeth Bauchhenss about Eugen Szenkar. The others, exception made for the article about the posthorn episode in the Third that I have still to read, seemed to me rather inconsistent).
We know that lack of money is the biggest problem of IGMG, and let me say that there are guys like Frank Fanning that work without remuneration and do great job (the Mahler concert calendar is a clear example of that). That said, I wonder why many people are making efforts in promoting vibrato free performances or the order of the movements of the Sixth. Do not get me wrong, these arguments are interesting, if not addressed by an ideological position that does not allow open-mindedness, but when lack of money is the biggest problem, why not be focused on releasing the Hamburg version of the First, the Schumann's and Beethoven's works retouched by Mahler, for example? Why not try to release some rare, unpublished recording of the society's archive (as it was suggested during a meeting a few years ago)?
Best regards,
Luca
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Thank you Luca, now I understand what you mean by her privacy; I thought it could mean things relevant to Mahler.
Would the IGMG even get some of the money from the performances of the newly released scores? Isn't the editor the copyright holder?
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Even if her diaries contain personal information that would be wrong to announce to the world, one would hope that an abridged version could be made available (perhaps under La Grange?) without offending her privacy. I have read a lot of Mahler's letters and (despite Alma's interference) it has given me a different view of Mahler the man, not just the musical deity he is often portrayed as today. It may not be high on the IMGM's to do list but first hand documentation of Mahler needs to be preserved in some way.
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I don't see how a specific individual's privacy can be offended when they are no longer alive to react and seek redress/compensation for damages for the release of confidential information harmful to their reputation. Only their survivors and succeeding generations are the ones who could/would be offended. In virtually all situations like this, life goes on. This happens everyday. We're talking about an individual who lived at least two, maybe three generations ago. Are things that sacrosanct, in this case? In my view, it's all academic.
Wade
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yeah, and just imagine if TMZ got a hold of Natalie, Alma, and Mahler!! What indiscretions!
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I found that all of "Mahler" is on you tube and was able to watch it. Some parts were out there and not necessary (i.e. Mahler's dreams or conversion) but the main story and flashbacks were good.
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Thank you Luca, now I understand what you mean by her privacy; I thought it could mean things relevant to Mahler.
Would the IGMG even get some of the money from the performances of the newly released scores? Isn't the editor the copyright holder?
My pleasure. I know nothing about copyright, but I think it benefits only those who print (owning the score), not those who prepare the edition.
Otherwise, IMGM would not have economic problems.
Regards,
Luca
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Even if her diaries contain personal information that would be wrong to announce to the world, one would hope that an abridged version could be made available (perhaps under La Grange?) without offending her privacy. I have read a lot of Mahler's letters and (despite Alma's interference) it has given me a different view of Mahler the man, not just the musical deity he is often portrayed as today. It may not be high on the IMGM's to do list but first hand documentation of Mahler needs to be preserved in some way.
While Alma suggested that Mahler did not care very much for her (we have to remember that she had to justify her infidelity and that she did not mention hger alcoolic problems), the last volume of family letters shows quite the contrary. For what concerns the weaknesses of the man, I understand and even justify many of them, not because he is a great genius but because I know that, apart from the American period, he grew up lived and worked in a hostile environment, surrounded by antisemitism.
Regards,
L.
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the diaries belong to Monsieur de La Grange. He bought them from family members of Natalie in the 1950ies.
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Well at least they're in good hands, actually probably the best for Mahler-related stuff.