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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: bluesbreaker on March 01, 2011, 02:44:48 PM
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I am not sure if similar topic has discussed before, but after some years listening to Mahler and Bruckner, I decided give Wagner a listen , and I would like to start with T&I, as I am listening the prelude on YouTube as I write.
Yesterday I saw a recording of it by Lenny Bernstein on Phillips. I would like to have it since it is rare and I love Lenny, but what are the standard recordings for this musical drama, as Wagner himself would call it?
Thanks.
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I thought the prelude has similar vibe with M10 adagio.
Just my impression.
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The universally-recognized best complete modern recording of Wagner's Tristan und Isolde is the 1966 live recording at Bayreuth conducted by Karl Böhm with Birgit Nilsson as Isolde and Wolfgang Windgassen as Tristan. There also is an excellent one from the so-called "Golden Age" (1936) with the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, having Fritz Reiner as conductor, Kirsten Flagstad as Isolde, and Lauritz Melchior as Tristan. Both recordings are readily available. Some here might quibble with me on these choices, but everyone has their preferences.
Wade
P.S. - Don't limit yourself to T & I. As soon as you've gotten your fill of this particular opera, come back for some more advice. However, at this point, I don't exactly recommend that you go from T & I to Der Ring des Nibelungen, but maybe you might want to further "wet your feet" by listening to orchestral excerpts from the other operas. George Szell's Sony recordings of such repertoire have been considered a standard for years, though other conductors such as Ormandy, Bernstein, Klemperer, and Walter made their recorded contributions to this particular repertoire. This is probably the best way to familiarize yourself with Wagner's music that will be very useful to you as a learning tool and recognition media for the coming years.
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I am not that fond of the Bohm/Nilsson/Windgassen Tristan. A lot of steel, not so much heart and mystery.
For depth, the Furtwangler/Flagstad/Suthaus on EMI and elsewhere seems far truer to me. And for excitement the Kleiber/Price/Kollo on DGG--though the live 1976 Bayreuth with Kleiber/Ligendza/Wenkov seems to me superior.
The Kubelik Meistersinger is very fine.
The Parsifal of Kanppertsbusch/Hotter/Thomas/Dalis is marvelous.
For the Ring-- Furtwangler La Scala for depth, Solti for drama, Keilberth Bayreuth Testament for fine singing and good sound, Karajan for fine orchestral playing.
Just a start.
Tom in Vermont
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Tom,
What's your thought on Thielemann's T&I?
I quite like it for the lots of details and exquisite orchestral playing.
John
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X2, what the Duke of Milan said above.
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The universally-recognized best complete modern recording of Wagner's Tristan und Isolde is the 1966 live recording at Bayreuth conducted by Karl Böhm with Birgit Nilsson as Isolde and Wolfgang Windgassen as Tristan. There also is an excellent one from the so-called "Golden Age" (1936) with the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, having Fritz Reiner as conductor, Kirsten Flagstad as Isolde, and Lauritz Melchior as Tristan. Both recordings are readily available. Some here might quibble with me on these choices, but everyone has their preferences.
Wade
P.S. - Don't limit yourself to T & I. As soon as you've gotten your fill of this particular opera, come back for some more advice. However, at this point, I don't exactly recommend that you go from T & I to Der Ring des Nibelungen, but maybe you might want to further "wet your feet" by listening to orchestral excerpts from the other operas. George Szell's Sony recordings of such repertoire have been considered a standard for years, though other conductors such as Ormandy, Bernstein, Klemperer, and Walter made their recorded contributions to this particular repertoire. This is probably the best way to familiarize yourself with Wagner's music that will be very useful to you as a learning tool and recognition media for the coming years.
Awesome. I will listen to the prelude recordings first I guess. Thanks!
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Tom,
What's your thought on Thielemann's T&I?
I quite like it for the lots of details and exquisite orchestral playing.
John
I've only heard the Thielemann's T&I on the radio, so I need to listen to it carefully. I heard his Ring live at Bayreuth in 2007 and a marvelous Rosenkavalier in London in 2001(?). I missed his FROSCH at the Met in 2002 because of travel break down. His recent Meistersinger on DVD is excellent (on the radio broadcast Sacks runs out of steam). I will need to check out his T&I to fill in my background.
Thanks for the alert, John.
Tom in Vermont
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I like the Bohm. For a more modern recording, I think that the Nina Stemme/Domingo/Papa/Pappano (cond.) one on EMI is really good. It seems to have received better reviews than the Thielemann.
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And what about the Lenny's account? Anyone heard it?
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"And what about the Lenny's account?"
Absurdly slow in a work that's already excessively long in delivering its rather simple message albeit beautifully so at that.
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"Absurdly slow in a work that's already excessively long in delivering its rather simple message albeit beautifully so at that."
So you are telling us that Lenny's account is overdrawn ::)
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"And what about the Lenny's account?"
Absurdly slow in a work that's already excessively long in delivering its rather simple message albeit beautifully so at that.
I'm going to have to disagree that T&I has or represents anything like a "rather simple message." The whole history of eros and the subconscious in the modern era along with the challenges of unattainable perfection and the allure of a transcendent mortality go far beyond anything simple in my view. In addition, the pressures both on consciousness and anything remotely like traditional harmony in T&I open the endless complexities of modern experience in psychological, philosophical, and musical dimensions.
Tom in Vermont
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"The whole history of eros and the subconscious in the modern era along with the challenges of unattainable perfection and the allure of a transcendent mortality go far beyond anything simple in my view. In addition, the pressures both on consciousness and anything remotely like traditional harmony in T&I open the endless complexities of modern experience in psychological, philosophical, and musical dimensions"
Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that it benefits from having the tempi be ultra-slow either.
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"The whole history of eros and the subconscious in the modern era along with the challenges of unattainable perfection and the allure of a transcendent mortality go far beyond anything simple in my view. In addition, the pressures both on consciousness and anything remotely like traditional harmony in T&I open the endless complexities of modern experience in psychological, philosophical, and musical dimensions"
Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that it benefits from having the tempi be ultra-slow either.
My comment is not about the Bernstein performance but rather the complex nature of of Wagner's "Tristan and Isolde." I much prefer Carlos Kleiber and Furtwangler to Bernstein in T&I. We might also mention Wagner's study and inclusion of Schopenhauer's philosophy in the text and music of T&I as one notable dimension of the enigmatic nature of the work. Barry Millington's "The Tristan Chord" is a useful commentary on the intellectual content of much of Wagner's work.
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Mea culpa maxima. That should be Bryan Magee, "The Tristan Chord: Wagner and Philosophy."
Tom in Vermont
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Then again, it could just be a good piece of music, albeit long. ;)
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Not wishing to be overly insistent, T&I is one of the most revolutionary works in the history of music. It portrays a cosmos of the internal world of desire that changed the nature of music and probably art in general for all of late 19th and early 20th century culture. Just consider the influence of Wagner and "Tristan" on Mahler, Bruckner, and Schoenberg. Also, see the quotes from Tristan in T.S. Eliot's "The Waste land," for instance.
Long. I suppose. But in its greatest performances overwhelming. It may not be to your taste, but like a Mahler symphony, it is not to be listened to as a curiosity but as a world.
Best,
Tom in Vermont
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As much as I admire T&I, I think Wagner's last opera, Parsifal is even a greater work. IMO, not a single note is wasted in this piece, and the orchestration is just well-nigh perfect from A to Z.
Who needs Mahler or Bruckner when he or she listens to Wagner?
Just a kidding! :P ;)
John,
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I certainly admire "Parsifal" (having seen it live four times, including at Bayreuth, for which Wagner wrote the score), but Barry was taking exception to the length of "Tristan" among other things, and "Parsifal" is about an hour longer than "Tristan." Again, I find the 1962 Knappertsbusch recording with Hotter as Gurnemanz compelling.
Tom
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Tom in Vermont,
"T&I" is very much too my taste. ;D I just don't take the philosophical side of things too seriously. Remember what Richard Strauss said when some correspondent asked him what "Die Frau ohne Schatten" was all about: "how the hell should I know, go ask Hoffmensthal". Frankly, I have no idea what-the-heck Mahler's 8th is all about, and I don't think that anybody seriously does either. Seriously, "Tristan" is just fine with me.
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Barry,
Richard Strauss was not Wagner. Wagner wrote the librettos to all his mature operas, and he wrote voluminously about opera and music and his own works. Works like "The Art Work of the Future" and "Opera and Drama" and many others plus an extensive autobiography--so while many of us may not be particularly interested in philosophy and music, Wagner was. His study of Kant and Schopenhauer, as Magee demonstrates, was intensive and extensive through his mature life. His discovery of Schopenhauer in 1854 certainly developed quickly into his writing of "Tristan" and deeply influenced his reimagining of the Ring, the meditative aspects of Meistersinger, and perhaps the whole of Parsifal.
Wagner also had extensive discussions and arguments about Kant and Schopenhauer with one of the most powerful (and dangerous) philosophers of the modern world, Nietzsche. Nietzsche wrote his first major work, "The Birth of Tragedy" under the spell of Wagner and "Tristan." Of course Nietzsche felt it necessary to take the strongest possible opposition to Wagner with Parsifal in his late works--so much afoot there, So while these things might not appeal to many of us, Wagner's deep connection to philosophy is undeniable.
All the best, Barry, and thanks for your many posts to this list. I've learned a great deal from them and others over the last few months.
Tom (in Vermont)
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I got the Bernstein's recording and gave a listen to the Prelude, first 10 minutes of Act 1, Liebestod, and the Love scene (sex scene maybe?)in Act 2.
Man, typical Lenny: full of passion! The Liebestod does sound kinda similar to Der Abschied.......listen to both back to back and see what I mean.
The Prelude also somehow predicts the M9 and M10 adagio.
That leads me thinking: what would T&I sound like under Mahler?
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"what would T&I sound like under Mahler?"
I'm sure you know that Mahler and Alfred Roller (producer) were very famous for their performances of "Tristan" at the Vienna Imperial Opera.
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"what would T&I sound like under Mahler?"
I'm sure you know that Mahler and Alfred Roller (producer) were very famous for their performances of "Tristan" at the Vienna Imperial Opera.
Have not read about it yet. When I have the time(which I don't have these days) I will research it. All I know is that Mahler did the premire in Vienna.
Edit: Just googled it. There's a document of 200+ pages so I need time to read. From the first page seems like the performance was a total success.