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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: Leo K on April 04, 2007, 06:52:38 PM
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I just ordered this used for a great price today...
I've read the reviews of a couple members here on an older thread, and the reviews have been mixed on the net. But generally I hear the performance is pretty good overall. Some reviewers praise it to the skies. I'm really looking forward to hearing this.
Does anyone have any further thoughts or reviews on this recording?
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I'm interested in the Mund/Kyoto one (waiting for John Kim to reply). It has an almost identical timing to Barenboim for the first movement. But Mund's Rondo-Burlesque is a good minute and a half faster, while his fourth movement is a solid minute slower. That appeals to me on the surface.
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The Barenboim M9th is a very good one; it has something new to say about the music and I like Barenboim's heads-up approach in the 1st movt. that emphasizes grim, aggressive elements in the score. The brass and woodwinds are wonderful as are the strings. Overall it sounds like Abbado's Berlin edition but it is much better recorded (both are live recordings). II-IV are also excellent, with lost of woodwinds played forwardly, and while the finale clocks just over 23 min. it never feels rushed thanks to Barenboim's careful control of tempo relationships between various sections. There are, however, two issues I want to take with. The sound quality, while pretty decent, is no match for this team's M7th CD issued last year. I think the main reason is because this one was a live recording, so the engineers must have struggled to find best mike positions in the notorious Berlin Phiharmonic Hall. As a result, the loud passages are somewhat constricted, and many details are not clearly audible in this recording. Still, it is a better recording effort than the Abbado/BPO/DG. Second, the playing is not always on the highest level. It seems that the orchestra didn't have enough rehearsals before the concert. I can hear some instrument (oboe near the end of I.?) is unusually louder than it needs to be, and the major climax in I. is not well synchronized. Or, maybe it's because of the fact that the recording is based on a single concert.
All in all, a very fine M9th despite the few issues.
John,
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Barry,
About Mund/Kyoto, based on my vague memory (it's been a while...) it was very well played and well structured but it isn't as furious a recording as Abbado/BPO, or even Barenboim's new recording. You won't be disappointed but you won't be rewarded much either. I'd recommend Barenoim's CD over this one.
Regards,
John,
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I can hear some instrument (oboe near the end of I.?) is unusually louder than it needs to be, and the major climax in I. is not well synchronized. Or, maybe it's because of the fact that the recording is based on a single concert.
All in all, a very fine M9th despite the few issues.
John,
Actually, this might also have to do with Barenboim's general "woodwinds in front" approach to Mahler: I attended his wonderfully exciting M5 performance with the Staatskapelle two days ago, and some of the woodwinds were even almost overblowing their instruments in certain passages. Yet, there were things to hear in the score that evening that I had never noticed before. Barenboim would (and actually does) claim that these are exactly the balances and often contrarian dynamics Mahler clearly indicates in his scores.
Concerning the M9: I was present at the concert performance this recording dates from and I absolutely loved the performance. I like the recording a bit less, although it's still a very good one. The points mentioned regarding sound quality and some minor ensemble bloopers are certainly correct. Concerning the latter: Well, the Staatskapelle certainly is an "edge-of-their-seats" orchestra like no other in Berlin. Yes, sometimes things go a bit wrong, but you always feel they're going full risk on every note. When everything's going fine (and most of the time it does), they are one hell of an exciting and gloriously sounding ensemble to watch and listen to.
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JE-B,
Thanks for your great "insider" comments. What you say about the Berlin Staatskapelle being more, "on the seat of their pants", and taking more risks, etc. - that doesn't surprise me. Their recordings do kind of strike me that way. That said, they also sound very technically assured in the more standard Austro-German repertoire: Beethoven; Schumann, etc. It must be sort of more fun to track them, than the almost too polished Berlin Phil.
Barry
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OK, on your advice, I'll give the Barenboim a spin sometime. Thanks.
Barry
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It must be sort of more fun to track them, than the almost too polished Berlin Phil.
Barry
Yes, exactly: It's really funny to see that whenever something goes wrong in a Berlin Philharmonic concert (which very, very rarely happens - they usually perfectly nail whatever is on their stands), people in the Philharmonie turn their heads in utter disbelief. ;) This is certainly very impressive to see, but it takes a really committed conductor to have them add passion and excitement to their faultless technique and musical stainlessness.
With the Staatskapelle, it doesn't seem to matter that much who's waving the baton (although, having Barenboim doesn't hurt either *s*) - you can simply see on their faces already that the brass section for instance is having a great time when it comes to a Mahler or Bruckner.
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Thank you John and Je-B for your thoughts and opinions. I just recieved this recording yesterday and played an exerpt in the car on the way to work. I'll have more to say later (after I know the recording better), but I can say I really enjoy the aggressive pulse of the first movement, and the Staatskapelle are indeed wonderful here! I'm glad I ordered this. I can already tell this is going to be a favorite 'faster' M9 to contrast with the slower performances I usually listen to.
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I agree with the previous comments made on this M9. It really is an in your face performance, not dull at all.
there are only two places where I was dissapionted, the tam-tam at the big climax of the first movement is too recessed, but the trombones are very good here. And the other was right after the big climax of the last movement, after the strings slowly release before we get to the cymbal crash, this section was too rushed I thought. Otherwise an excellent performance well worth hearing, the sound is a little muddy at times in the thciker orchestrated parts mainly noticable in the Rondo-Burleske, but with fast tempo's quite understandable. This CD is certainly a keeper!
Vatz
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Wow, this is a great M9!! I listened to it twice last night and was really taken with the whole performance. The instrumental detail during each movement is quite exciting. The oboes seem particularly prominent, but the details they bring are wonderful.
My favorite detail is the rather loud oboe droning on and on near the very end of the first movement...the suspense this causes is interesting, like someone who can't let something go for whatever reason. This is a small detail but it makes a difference to the overall "story" of the music. Incidently, the intonation the oboe players achieve is incredible...I fell in love with the instrument all over again. At times, I imagined this was Mahler's Oboe Concerto.
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My favorite detail is the rather loud oboe droning on and on near the very end of the first movement...the suspense this causes is interesting, like someone who can't let something go for whatever reason. This is a small detail but it makes a difference to the overall "story" of the music. Incidently, the intonation the oboe players achieve is incredible...I fell in love with the instrument all over again. At times, I imagined this was Mahler's Oboe Concerto.
Leo,
The oboe at this point is marked pp. But Barenboim let the oboesit play somewhat like mf. It sounds much louder than it actually is because the other instruments - harp & horn - are marked ppp. I think this is nearly a fatal mistake, certainly not a thing that the conductor imposed intentionally. I don't care for this treatment.
John,
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My favorite detail is the rather loud oboe droning on and on near the very end of the first movement...the suspense this causes is interesting, like someone who can't let something go for whatever reason. This is a small detail but it makes a difference to the overall "story" of the music. Incidently, the intonation the oboe players achieve is incredible...I fell in love with the instrument all over again. At times, I imagined this was Mahler's Oboe Concerto.
Leo,
The oboe at this point is marked pp. But Barenboim let the oboesit play somewhat like mf. It sounds much louder than it actually is because the other instruments - harp & horn - are marked ppp. I think this is nearly a fatal mistake, certainly not a thing that the conductor imposed intentionally. I don't care for this treatment.
John,
Yes John, I definitely see your point...this must be the oboeist getting out of line...obviously not following Mahler's actual marking. Yet, for me this is a "happy" accident rather than a fatal mistake...players, for whatever reason, getting caught up in the heat of the moment or not paying attention. I do wish the players to play accurately if all possible, but sometimes if an accident or mistake occurs and it sounds interesting in the context of what has gone on before...I am apt to accept it. In this case I feel the passage was elevated, or improved somehow, or given another possibly that will never be heard again. Of course I have no doubt there are more who will disagree and I can't say I blame anyone for being dissapointed at such a mistake. :)
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Leo,
This isn't the only place where one instrument gets so prominent. There are other spots in I., for example, in which horns are way too forwardly recorded, so much so that I can only think either the player had a bad day or Barenboim was much too careless in his conducting job.
I can certainly take a point as long as it makes sense musically, even if it is not indicated in the score (e.g., Bernstein's way with Mahler almost always makes sense), but it's hard to accept Barenboim's (or the players') here.
Still, a pretty good M9th.
John,
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Leo,
This isn't the only place where one instrument gets so prominent. There are other spots in I., for example, in which horns are way too forwardly recorded, so much so that I can only think either the player had a bad day or Barenboim was much too careless in his conducting job.
I can certainly take a point as long as it makes sense musically, even if it is not indicated in the score (e.g., Bernstein's way with Mahler almost always makes sense), but it's hard to accept Barenboim's (or the players') here.
Still, a pretty good M9th.
John,
I think it's time I buy the score to the 9th again, as well as the other Symphonies eventually, as it will help me figure out more whats happening. I used to own almost all the scores to Mahler's works, but I had given them away before my move to the desert (here in ole Tucson)...this is something I really regret because I had marked alot of helpful notes with pen and highlighter markers inside them!!
Again, thanks for your helpful comments on this recording John.
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The oboe note in question is held for a long time. Oboes cut like banshees, and it's extremely difficult for an oboe to sustain such a long note softly, without actually stalling on the note. While it's undoubtedly marked to be played softly, you have to figure that Mahler must have wanted it to cut through, just by his choice of giving that note to the oboe as opposed to a clarinet (there's a solo flute there already). Obviously, some oboe players can probably do this better than others. Also, microphone placement will have a lot to do with the balance of such a passage. But like trumpets, oboes cut like buzzsaws. I think it lends the passage a sort of expressionistic quality - keeping it from just being sacharine or cliche' sounding.
Barry
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The oboe note in question is held for a long time. Oboes cut like banshees, and it's extremely difficult for an oboe to sustain such a long note softly, without actually stalling on the note. While it's undoubtedly marked to be played softly, you have to figure that Mahler must have wanted it to cut through, just by his choice of giving that note to the oboe as opposed to a clarinet (there's a solo flute there already). Obviously, some oboe players can probably do this better than others. Also, microphone placement will have a lot to do with the balance of such a passage. But like trumpets, oboes cut like buzzsaws. I think it lends the passage a sort of expressionistic quality - keeping it from just being sacharine or cliche' sounding.
Barry
Thanks for that interesting info regarding the oboe. I Agree that in this recording the passage is quite expressionistic, and has quite changed my usual view regarding this section of the Symphony.
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All the talk of this recording has piqued my interest, and based on my liking of Barenboim's 7th, I decided to pick up this recording. I found the first movement to be a tad fast (and I usually listen to Haitink's 1st RCO recording, which is fairly brisk). However, I do quite like the recording over all.
As to the oboe at the end of the movement, I have to say I do not really enjoy that approach overmuch, though it is not a deal-breaker. I think it is as Barry says-it is difficult to sustain such a long note and be pp at the same time.
I noticed another odd "woodwinds in front" moment in the first movement. Right at the grand statement of the main theme (around the 3 minute mark), you can hear clarinets quite prominently. In most of the recordings I have, I can scarcely hear them. Maybe Barenboim and the Staatskapelle players are simply bringing out details in the piece that have hitherto been overshadowed in other recordings (primarilly by strings)?