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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: Stürmisch Bewegt on April 26, 2011, 12:46:55 PM
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As I've started to realize a piano transcription of M4' finale, that I wish to be the closest possible to Mahler's version, I often listen to his "recording" on the Welte Mignon rolls.
For those who want to get familiarized with the Welte Mignon system, there are very detailed explanations with photographs on the Tacet website:
http://www.tacet.de/main/seite1.php?language=en&filename=welte.php&layout=katalog
So the more I listen to, the more I become aware of the importance of this testimony to get an idea about how Mahler could be as a musician, a conductor and as a person. I like the charm , the spontaneity, the natural and the vivacity of his playing. The way he phrases the beginning is delightful. I'll enjoy playing Mahler with Mahler when I finish the job.
I've ordered the Preiser Records CD "Gustav Mahler und sein Klavier".The samples I heard sounded very clear, especially the left hand. (useful for me). I didn't understand if the reproduction was done on Mahler's own Blüthner piano, or on a Blüthner as Mahler's one. The CD notes will probably clear this point.
The Kaplan Collection record probably sounds well too. Who knows it?
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The Kaplan Collection record probably sounds well too. Who knows it?
For the Kaplan collection recordings, a Welte-Mignon vorsetzer device was set up in front of a modern Steinway D (9-foot) piano in a recording studio. The blower pump that runs the vorsetzer was detached and placed in a separate room to minimize mechanical noise on the recordings. The recordings themselves are very clean and detailed. The perspective seems quite close-in, resulting in an unusually wide soundstage for a piano recording—one might even say unnaturally wide.
James
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As I've started to realize a piano transcription of M4' finale, that I wish to be the closest possible to Mahler's version, I often listen to his "recording" on the Welte Mignon rolls.
There might be a small problem regarding the closest possible M4 finale on the Welte Mignon rolls, and that is: when Mahler plays the M4 finale on the piano, he executes it in 7:21 (extremely fast), but when he is conducting the Concertgebouw Orchestra in Amsterdam, the 4 movement is executed in 9:30 (as noted by Willem Mengelberg).
Roffe
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When I say "the closest" it concerns the notes, not the tempo. To do the reduction I use the orchestra score ,then I compare what I play with what Mahler plays .
the fastest recording versions I know are in 8 minutes. (Gielen , Kubelik). but I'm not surprised that Mahler could have conducted one day fast and another day slower. That sayed ,are Mengelberg's notes truthworthy?
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That sayed ,are Mengelberg's notes truthworthy?
I don't know. Mengelberg took notes in his score of every Mahler symphony Mahler conducted in Holland. At least the 9:30 is probable, almost every recording seems to lie between 8:30 to 10 minutes. The 7:21 for the piano version is from a CD "Mahler plays Mahler", track information at: http://www.answers.com/topic/mahler-plays-mahler-the-welte-mignon-piano-rolls
Roffe
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On the "Master of the roll "CD the time record is braked : 6:25 ! The "G M und sein klavier " version does 8:03 . Admittedly we know that it is delicate to adjust the speed of the rolls , it makes a big difference. I'm impatient to get my CD to compare.
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Bruno Walter was frequently less than 9 minutes as well. There's no indication in the score to take the last stanzas at a super slow pace. Afterall, the text expresses a boy's idea of heaven and not a soprano's.
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And rare are the sopranos respecting Mahler's indication "kurz" (short) on the Ursula fermata. F von Stade does it. Great musician.
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I have recorded my piano transcription of the final of M4. It is a "live recording" I realised at home .
http://3odnrl.alterupload.com/ (http://3odnrl.alterupload.com/)
here the file has been converted into a mp4 file.
the original file is very heavy but the sound quality is better. it takes about 30mn to download. here is the link :
http://pga9l5.alterupload.com/ (http://pga9l5.alterupload.com/)
If you are interested !
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Move over Mahler - great job! The MP4 file sounds fine. I like how you brought out the low register each time the music suddenly turns slow, and the text is discussing one of the saints ("Saint Someone-or-another bakes the bread", etc.).
I would urge others to give this listen - if for no other reason, as a model for how this movement should go. A labor of love.
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I agree that this mp4 sounds just fine.
I'm familiar with all the Welte-Mignon type "recordings" by Mahler himself, but I find this sounds much lighter (not in the feeling and love for the piece, but in the touch). Perhaps this is a difference inherent in the sound of piano roll performance, but the lightness of touch in this performance I find more in keeping with a look up into the fluffy lightness of clouds; into the heavens. Somehow, this piano version, for me at least, clearly brings to mind the full range of the orchestral intents--I keep expecting to hear the soprano describe for us the beauties of heaven. I certainly think Mahler would be pleased to hear this.
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Wow, I'm impressed. Very good job, and the mp4-file sounds fine to me. Congratulations.
Roffe
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Thanks for the comments , Barry, Constantin, Roffe. I am glad you appreciate the performance. It is rewarding and encouraging for me .
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For those who have not yet listened to this M4 finale piano performance, please "give it a listen."
It's hard to believe piano alone could capture the essence of such a moving orchestral piece, but as a pen and ink drawing can sometimes equal in expressiveness, a colorful oil painting, this M4 piano recording stands on its own.
Perhaps with some encouragement, SB might consider trying his luck at a piano version of the third movement of M3 (before the Posthorn) or perhaps one of the choral or solo parts from near the end of M8, Part II. These may have possibilities on the piano.
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This is fantastic, well done!
Say, want to come vacation in northern New Hampshire sometime this year? I'm trying to put together a performance of the Woss 4-hand piano reduction of Mahler's 8th. (See here for the score: http://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/85162). I've got one willing pianist whose capable of playing it but having trouble finding a second.
Thank you for sharing this beautiful recording.
Best,
Herb Randall
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If you get somebody to play the 2nd part, any chance you might record it?
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I believe the Woss four hands piano reduction of M8 might sound well.
I am tempted about recording both parts myself with a multi track recorder.
I will try to see if it is possible.
Another problem is the length of the piece. It would be confortable to record it by little bits and join them with a software .I am afraid this would be the most difficult part of the job! (much more difficult than playing the piano!)
Till then I have two Lieder almost "in the box"
SB
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If I can manage to get a second pianist roped into my crazy M8 project, I would definitely make every effort to have it recorded.
I hadn't considered the multi-tracking option, but that may be the next best option if I can't find another pianist.
Or maybe we should do a cross-Atlantic recording?!
Cheers,
Herb
PS: What Lieder are you working on?
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PS: What Lieder are you working on?
"Ich bin der Welt" and "Ging heut' morgen ".
SB
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I hope when the two Lieder are "in the box," SB will consider recording them and posting them here, so that the rest of us can enjoy piano performance of these works. The mp4 of M4 was wonderful, and anticipation of hearing a piano solo of "ich bin der Welt" and "ging heut' morgen" is tantalizing!
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I hope when the two Lieder are "in the box," SB will consider recording them and posting them here
This is my intend .