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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: john haueisen on June 14, 2011, 01:07:10 AM
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Did you ever have the experience of finding that you had neglected a particular Mahler work?
For a long time I had not paid attention to Mahler's songs, but last year I discovered "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen," and felt a closer kinship with Mahler. It seems to me as though he's right there in his song, telling us something about himself, and why he might seem to have dropped off the Earth, into a world of his own music.
Likewise, a friend recently mentioned loving every word, every phrase of Mahler's Eighth.
I am ashamed to admit that I had always neglected M8. Part of my excuse is that I had such close friendships with M2, M3, M4, M6, M7 and M9, that I just hadn't spent time on M8. Another excuse was that I was a little bit intimidated by those eight soloists, the Latin, the choirs, and the huge orchestras.
My friend was right. I didn't know what I had been missing. Mahler's Eighth is, a dispenser of joy, "a bringer of joy" as Mahler described it to Richard Specht (HLDLG: Vienna: Triumph and Disillusion, p 926). M8 is simply overflowing with happiness, peace and redemption. Shame on me for having neglected it for so long, and thanks to my friend for persuading me to pay attention to it. All day long, I hear notes, phrases, and whole passages of it running through my mind, no matter what else I am doing.
Has anyone else postponed trying out M8, or has anyone else ever neglected a Mahler work, only to discover later what they had been missing?
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Over the years, I find that the one Mahler work I've neglected the most has been the Kindertotenlieder. I find the other song cycles more interesting and fascinating than the Kindertotenlieder. I guess it's because the work is the most depressing of all Mahler's works, particularly when you're a parent.
Wade
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Here is my question:
How often is your life full of joy and happiness?
I bet there are more unhappy, struggling moments than the opposite moments in the life of modern man.
So, naturally we don't get as close to M8th than say, M6th, M9th and M10th.
It's simple as that.
Of course, this is not to say that M8th is inferior to the other Mahler symphonies as a piece of art.
John,
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Did you ever have the experience of finding that you had neglected a particular Mahler work?
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Has anyone else postponed trying out M8, or has anyone else ever neglected a Mahler work, only to discover later what they had been missing?
It wasn't that I postponed or neglected M8, but instead I simply did not like it (or any of his vocal works). I originally acquired Tennstedt's acclaimed M8, based on its reputation, but it just didn't stick. Jarvi's was a definite bust (for me). Chaiily's M8 didn't wear well after many repeated hearings. A few years ago I bought another Tennstedt M8, a used copy, but still it really didn't work (for me).
After three decades of enjoying M9 (Giulini/CSO), M1 (after NYPO summer concert on LI park), M6 (Abbado/CSO), M4 (Previn/PSO), M5 (Sinopoli/PO), M2 (Kaplan/LSO), DLvdE (Giulini/BPO), and M10 (Chailly/BRSO) - roughly in that order as I recall, on LP or then CD - the Gergiev and Witt M8s won me over to M8. Now, like John, I've discovered the joy, and I find myself hearing M8 fragments in my mind all the time (should I warn my wife and/or doctor?).
I've had a similar impediment to M7. I had the well-regarded Abbado/CSO M7, but it always sounded disjointedly episodic to me, like a patchwork of section-by-section studio takes (I admit to having no idea how it was actually recorded). Now, after owning Halász, Bertini, Barenboim, Abbado/BPO, and Noseda, I can't understand what confounded me, but something did, and now it thankfully is gone.
Perhaps passing five decades of life has something to do with it. It is somewhat unsettling to think that my 'maturity' at 25, 30, 35, 40, and even 45 wasn't sufficient to appreciate M8, but I can't deny the truth.
That said, I still have along way to go with the rest of Mahler's vocal-symphonic genre. Ask me to hum a tune from Rückertlieder. KTL, DKW, LEFG, or DKL and I'll fail the test. Yes, I can hear in my mind's ear the cor anglais in "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen" and the martial start of "Wo die schönen Trompeten blasen" but if asked, I couldn't say in which cycles these appear.
Unlike Mahler, I'm counting on another five decades to come to know these as well as his symphonic works.
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I do not like #8...never have. Love the rest, though.
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I admire your honesty, Dave, but from my personal experience just now discovering for myself the overwhelming beauty of M8, I believe that time may change your mind.
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Let me put it this way:
I LIKE M8th very much, but don't listen to it as often as I listen to the other symphonies for the reason I explained above.
So, liking and listening are two different things ;).
John,
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Put me down as one who does not care much for M8. However, I am sure that one day it will click for me. I'm not much into Mahler's (non symphonic) songs, either.
Dave
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I wonder if loving vocal music (including choral music and opera) might have something to do with whether or not one takes to M8? For me, as an opera and lieder lover, if given the choice to hear a performance of M8 or any other Mahler symphony, I'd take the M8 just about every time. Also the sheer mass alone is such an overwhelming experience.
Russell
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I first discovered M8 around 1970, with Bernstein's LSO Columbia/Sony recording. Though I was then intrigued by the numbers of performers involved, it took until 1974, when I participated in a performance of the work as part of Chorus I in Washington's National Cathedral, with the Cathedral Choral Society and the Choral Arts Society. It was then that I discovered and began to appreciate the power and beauty of the work. Numerous sections of the work's power and beauty stood out, and still do, in my memory of the experience.
For those of you who don't yet care for the work, it may either take a live encounter, either as a performer or at a concert to begin to appreciate M8 as the former required me to do. Also, a basic understanding of, or appreciation of both German and Latin may act as an aid. If at any time, you can get tickets to go to a live performance, definitely do go! You may be in for quite an experience!
It also may be that recording technology has yet to fully capture the impact of the work for many of you. Until then.....
Wade
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I didn't care very much for M8 until I heard (and saw) a live performance in the 80's. The first FFF 'Veni creator' with organ, choirs, solists, and full orchestra completely blew me away. I may not play M8 as often as the other symphonies, but I now appreciate it and love it.
No, for me it's DKL that is my neglected work. Maybe I need a live performance to really appreciate it. Or perhaps play it again and again and again, so that the texts get burned to the hard disc in my brain and I can hum along with the singers.
Roffe
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"80s" - just a simple plural, like "books", not "book's".
I used to be blind to the songs, especially K.L. and Knaben; oh, and the early songs. Among the symphonies, M8 tended to be the back marker.
However this lovely board inspired me to listen to the complete works from first to last in cycles. [I have reached M4 on my 10th circuit.] Doing so has taught me to love the lot. Now I do, it is crystal clear to me that Mahler simply is the composer for me.
As with contemporary music, a part of the secret of getting to grips is repeated listening. Right until the resistable has become familiar. Now that I have got more familiar with 8, the panorama no longer looks as it did. And the lack of closeness to the songs is now rather surprising because they are so beautiful. [But then, I've only recently made proper comtact with opera.
btw, I think whether or not one gets with the 8th, the songs and so on early or late depends on whether one is a very literary person or not.
Ivor
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I stand corrected.
Roffe
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For some inexplicable reason, M4 has been the most neglected Mahler work for me, along with Das Klagende Lied.
I am rectifying this situation however!
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Good for you, Don.
For me, the simple, childlike view of heaven of M4 reminds me of Anton Bruckner's unquestioning religion. It is important for the singer to sing in a childlike fashion: not showing off the voice, but straightforwardly telling about a simple vision of heaven.
I also neglected M4 for too long, and have just rediscovered it this year.
John H
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Good for you, Don.
For me, the simple, childlike view of heaven of M4 reminds me of Anton Bruckner's unquestioning religion. It is important for the singer to sing in a childlike fashion: not showing off the voice, but straightforwardly telling about a simple vision of heaven.
I also neglected M4 for too long, and have just rediscovered it this year.
John H
John,
You raise an important point about the singer singing in a childlike fashion. Plus, that also begs the question as to WHAT singer fits the bill, either past or present. For me, there are two from the past: One is Desi Halban, who sang in Bruno Walter's NYPO mono recording, and her daughter, Reri Grist, who later sang in Bernstein's NYPO Sony recording. Nothing like for the daughter to follow in her mom's footsteps!
Additionally, Reri Grist can not only be heard singing, but can also be seen singing the part in the installment on Mahler in the multi-DVD set of Bernstein's Young People's Concerts. Definitely worth watching!
Wade
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btw, I think whether or not one gets with the 8th, the songs and so on early or late depends on whether one is a very literary person or not.
Ivor
I think there may be something to Ivor's thought on appreciating M8 and classic literature as well. By some strange coincidence (?) I read Goethe's Faust last year, before my first exposure to Mahler. I feel that prepared me so that M8 didn't seem as odd as it might have without that background.
I like choral music in general, and I suspect that also helped my immediate appreciation of M8. I have a suspicion that if someone likes Handel's Messiah, they ought to "get" M8 also. But maybe I'm just weird? :)
Cheers,
Herb
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Usually when a literary person is the castaway on Desert Island Discs, or the guest on the upmarket Radio 3 version [Private Passions], they usually choose works and tracks which are sung i.e. have words.
Suddenly i wonder why it's mahler's songs plus DLE and the 8th that have been the popular Mahler.
M
Ivor
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I have never read Goethe's Faust, but I enjoy Gounod's Faust and Boito's Mefistofele and saw both (with Ramey) here at Houston Grand Opera. I am an opera fan in general, and I like the vocal parts of all the rest of Mahler's symphonies. I just am not into M8.
Dave
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I neglected M8 for a number of years, for several reasons, some obviously hallucinatory. In my memory, it doesn't seem as interesting as his other works because it is not plagued by his demons. And, it's performed infrequently; often a live concert is a trigger to revisit my recordings of a piece for a while.
Last summer I went through a big obsession with M8, and was humbled by how good it is and delighted to renew the acquaintance. I read that Mahler considered it his best work and I am in no position to challenge that opinion.
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the Benstein/LSO recording did it for me. After that, I never had a problem with the 8th ever again. You might try the excellent Unitel/DG dvd of the 8th with Lennie.
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M10 for me. Still haven't heard the whole thing.
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the Benstein/LSO recording did it for me. After that, I never had a problem with the 8th ever again. You might try the excellent Unitel/DG dvd of the 8th with Lennie.
Thanks, Barry. I'll be watching it this afternoon.
John H
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Returning to M8, to me it seems that the closing of M8: "Alles Vergangliche....ist nur ein Gleichnis...ist nur ein Gleichnis" is a theme relating to redemption, like Wagner's closing to Gotterdammerung. I find it hauntingly beautiful, and so many of the M8 melodies and phrases continue to run through my mind for days after each M8 experience.
Is it too intrusive to ask if anyone has shared this impression, or do many just listen to the musical themes, without any concern for the meaning of the words?
John H
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Returning to M8, to me it seems that the closing of M8: "Alles Vergangliche....ist nur ein Gleichnis...ist nur ein Gleichnis" is a theme relating to redemption, like Wagner's closing to Gotterdammerung. I find it hauntingly beautiful, and so many of the M8 melodies and phrases continue to run through my mind for days after each M8 experience.
Is it too intrusive to ask if anyone has shared this impression, or do many just listen to the musical themes, without any concern for the meaning of the words?
John H
I haven't given much thought to the words of the Chorus Mysticus at the close of M8, as the closing lines of M2 have much more meaning for me. John, you bring up an interesting aspect, and it's quite possible that Mahler had the same thing in mind when composing M8. For the most part, I'm caught up in the music, as I guess Goethe's Faust has me as baffled as likely many others here. The next time I listen to ANY M8 recording, I'll have to concentrate on the meaning behind what's being sung vice how good or how bad the performance is. Thanks for bringing this out.
Wade
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Thanks, Wade.
I never really understood the closing scene of Faust until M8's music opened my eyes.
If we look back to Part One, which is often somewhat neglected, the Latin words of the "Veni, creator spiritus" read:
"Come, Creator Spirit,
visit our souls,
fill them with grace,
Thou, that didst create them."
It continues with many more "organized church-type" references, but most meaningful to me, in light of my love for M2, were the words "Accende lumen sensibus" (Kindle our senses with light). They echo M2’s “wird mir ein Lichtchen geben” (will give me a little light) and “wird leuchten mir bin in das ewig Leben” (will light the way).
Likewise, near the end of M8’s Part Two, we hear:
“Blicket auf, blicket auf, zum Retterblick, alle reuig Zarten”
(Look upward, to the redeeming gaze, all creatures frail and contrite.)
This echoes M2’s
“Werde ich entschweben, zum Licht, zu dem kein Aug’ gedrungen”
(I shall soar upwards, to the light to which no eye has penetrated)
For me personally, M8 mirrors M2, with a message of getting over the past (Alles Vergangliche), and seeing the light to a redemptive heavenly realm.
M2’s final line: “Zu Gott wird es dich tragen!” (It will lead you to God!)
But then, that’s just me.
John H
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Thanks, Wade.
I never really understood the closing scene of Faust until M8's music opened my eyes.
If we look back to Part One, which is often somewhat neglected, the Latin words of the "Veni, creator spiritus" read:
"Come, Creator Spirit,
visit our souls,
fill them with grace,
Thou, that didst create them."
It continues with many more "organized church-type" references, but most meaningful to me, in light of my love for M2, were the words "Accende lumen sensibus" (Kindle our senses with light). They echo M2’s “wird mir ein Lichtchen geben” (will give me a little light) and “wird leuchten mir bin in das ewig Leben” (will light the way).
Likewise, near the end of M8’s Part Two, we hear:
“Blicket auf, blicket auf, zum Retterblick, alle reuig Zarten”
(Look upward, to the redeeming gaze, all creatures frail and contrite.)
This echoes M2’s
“Werde ich entschweben, zum Licht, zu dem kein Aug’ gedrungen”
(I shall soar upwards, to the light to which no eye has penetrated)
For me personally, M8 mirrors M2, with a message of getting over the past (Alles Vergangliche), and seeing the light to a redemptive heavenly realm.
M2’s final line: “Zu Gott wird es dich tragen!” (It will lead you to God!)
But then, that’s just me.
John H
John,
That's quite a spiritual (at least, Christian) way at looking at the texts Mahler selected for these two symphonies he wrote. A few years ago, I presented the text of M2 to a theologian that taught for many years in Methodist seminaries, but unfortunately, I never got a positive or negative take on Mahler's selection of the Klopstock "Aufferstehung" poem and his additional text to the symphony.
Are there any men or women of the "cloth" here at the Gustav Mahler Board who'd like to express their opinion(s) one way or the other on Mahler's spiritual approach to the Second and Eighth Symphonies?
Wade
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One of the unique attributes of Mahler's music is that it can be appreciated on several levels.
Even if we do not pay attention to the meaning of the words, we are still able to appreciate the misterioso and the exhilaration, the grandeur, and things I can only hint at--like the dancing of the planets--the music of the spheres.
But Mahler did choose to use words--and words mean something.
The words of M2 and M8 remind us of Judeo-Christian religion, but as usual for Mahler, he goes even further to embrace the spirituality of humanity. The Asian or oriental themes and the tam tam provide a feeling of universality, going beyond Christian values.
Like the analogy to an onion, we can dig deeper and see other layers of each Mahler symphony. Or, we can focus on the layer we like best, and enjoy his music on that level.
What would life be like without Mahler!
John H
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Like the analogy to an onion, we can dig deeper and see other layers of each Mahler symphony. Or, we can focus on the layer we like best, and enjoy his music on that level.
Thanks, John. This opens the door for me to add my two cents. As a non-believer, the matter of religious texts (and subtexts) in music is of some concern to me. I study the texts initially in an effort to understand the composer's motivations and intentions, but because I don't share their beliefs—and in many cases find them absurd—I end up putting the texts aside and treating the vocal components as simply additional lines in the overall musical texture. Of course, I'm able to appreciate Mahler's (typically secular) songs and song cycles in a more conventional manner, and I find "Des Antonius von Padua Fischpredigt" particularly rewarding.
It seems to me that Mahler—the vigorous seeker of truth—had difficulty accepting Christian mythology as it's commonly understood. He liked its promise of eternal life, but rejected its more negative, judgmental aspects. After all, in the Second Symphony we find no "day of wrath," no "weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth" (I love that image), and certainly no "hellfire and damnation." Instead we get a Universalist view of Christianity in which everyone is saved, whether or not they've done any of the things scripture seems to demand as prerequisites. In his Eighth Symphony, by setting the final scene of Faust, Part II, Mahler is aided by Goethe in presenting another "alternative" view of Christianity. Heinrich Faust receives full Christian redemption despite never repenting his sins, not having lived a particularly virtuous life, and never expressing any religious faith.
As they say on the Internet, YMMV.
James
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"Is it too intrusive to ask if anyone has shared this impression, or do many just listen to the musical themes, without any concern for the meaning of the words"
Sorry to jump into this conversation so late, but what I find interesting is Mahler's letter to Alma (his wife) on Goethe, and the "Chorus Mysticus" in particular. I certainly don't remember it verbatim, but Mahler emphasized the "indescribable" and the, "hier ist's getan" (here, the indescribable is achieved) aspects of the chorus. For Mahler, I think the Chorus Mysticus was as much 'mystical' as it was 'redemptive'. It's also interesting to read Donald Mitchell's essay - generally, he's somebody I'm not so crazy about - on Mahler 8. He talks about sex: Eros. The 'goodness' that's involved here is very much assigned a feminine character. This sort of crosses over into the late 19th century, Art Nuoveau-ish obsession with women's curves, freer sexual morals, and a general interest in all things erotic. Put all this together, and one can imagine that Mahler was crossing the 'orgasmic' with the 'mystical', with the added emphasis that one really can't quite do these magical things on earth. In addition, I think there's even something of a political message to Mahler 8, in much the same way that Beethoven's 9th was to the people of his time. The Mahler 6th symphony pointed out the problem to Austo/Germans (uncontrolled militarism); the 8th was a beacon pointing the way out from this dead end. However, Mahler was very poor at just coming out and saying such things. It's that whole business of fearing musical 'programs', and thus, being completely misinterpreted and misunderstood. He could sometimes be quite obtuse, and would come to a point in a rather elliptical way. Thus, he was always making literary references, and the 8th symphony is just one huge literary reference. That's why it's fun to speculate and guess.