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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: ctcdaggett on March 05, 2012, 01:14:33 AM
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At around $70 + shipping, this is a bit on the pricey side for sure, but got glowing reports from Audiophile mag, "The Audio Beat". Any takers, comments or info?
bob berkman, mojave desert
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Japanese companies are releasing SACD/SHM CDs lately.
SACD + SHM (Super High Material) CD!
I head the sound is beyond any reproach.
John,
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This is a "straight" SACD. No Esoteric releases are SHM.
berkman
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Extremely impressive SACD remastering. Great sense of depth and presence. It reveals the nuances of the performance better than any other mastering I have heard. On a high resolution system it may be slightly clearer and may have more immediacy than a top EMI analog pressing.
Surely a major Mahler performance in very fine sound.
Tom in Vermont
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I might also mention the Esotereic SACD remastering of the Klemperer Das Lied ESSE-90043, which is also a gorgeous sonic presentation. Christa Ludwig is heard singing from the middle of the orchestra with the score flowing around her. There is now a separate EMI SACD version the Klemperer Das Lied available from Japan that I have not heard. Though the EMI SACD of the Klemperer Missa Solemnis and German Requiem are both very impressive.
Tom in Vermont
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"may be slightly clearer and may have more immediacy than a top EMI analog pressing."
Gee, I would sure hope so!
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Gee, I would sure hope so!
Careful, Barry. You risk triggering an analog vs. digital debate; this could become a less friendly place really fast. ;D
James
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Barry,
Have you auditioned clean first pressings of great 1960s EMI recordings on high quality reproduction systems in the past 20 or 30 years?Or the great RCA Shaded Dog pressings of the late 50s and early 60s? Or the great mono chamber and vocal recordings of the 50s. Or even a first pressing of the 1952 Walter Vienna Das Lied from an original issue? Or original 78 pressings of the Schnabel Beethoven or Casals Bach cello suites.
The reason some have pursued SACD format is that standard CDs, while pretty good at their best, seem not to have the nuance and subtlety of the best analog. Not everyone agrees, but there is evidence that standard redbook CDs have been exceeded in sound quality by SACD versions. Hence the interest in more refined remastering of classic recordings plus use of the superior information available in the SACD format.
It is thought by some that even the analog sources of earlier classic performances, such as the best of the Furtwangler perfromances, benefit from the greater resolution of the SACD format. The Esoteric SACD remastering of the Barbirolli Mahler 5 is a case in point. In the view of some, the standard CD format lacks some of the beauty and range of the analog original. The SACD version is superior to previous CD versions, in my listening, and captures more of the analog nuance while benefiting from the digital removal of LP type surface noise.
Best to all,
Tom in Vermont
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I am a great believer in the virtues of SACD, but I have found that a fair number don't live up to the high sonic standards of the best ones. Conversely, some well-recorded RBCDs are excellent, which seems to imply - in part at least - that recording techniques rather than the technologies used can make the biggest difference.
On a related topic, I've just heard the 24/96 download of Solti's Mahler 8 (available from Linn Records) and I was staggered by how much better it sounds compared with the 24/96 Decca Legends CD. In theory they should sound much the same, but take it from me the download is one of the finest I've heard. It might also make those revisionists who malign Solti acknowledge his considerable talents as a Mahlerian.
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Agreed that the recordings will determine the quality of both RBCD and SACD. For example, the Sony Japan SACDs of Bernstein's first cycle are not nearly as good sonically as the remastered DG CDs of his later one.
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I've just heard the 24/96 download of Solti's Mahler 8 (available from Linn Records) and I was staggered by how much better it sounds compared with the 24/96 Decca Legends CD. In theory they should sound much the same, but take it from me the download is one of the finest I've ever heard. It might also make those revisionists who malign Solti's Mahler acknowledge his considerable talents as a Mahlerian.
I'm glad to know of a true 24/96 release for this recording. Despite its detractors, it's always occupied a warm spot in my heart: I heard the original 1971 performance in Chicago a couple of months before they went to Vienna to record it, and it was a life-altering experience for this 21-year-old college student.
I've been pretty satisfied with the Japanese SHM-CD remastering—a noticeable improvement over the Decca Legends release—but it, like the Decca, necessarily ended up downsampled to 16/44.1 for Redbook production. The most glaring problem remaining is the overloaded pedal E-flat from the organ in the closing bars. Kenneth Wilkinson and/or Gordon Parry let the original tape saturate. It's most obvious from figure 220 to the end, and it's probably uncorrectable. Do you recall how this section fares on the Linn release?
BTW, I heard some wise-ass once describe Solti's Decca Mahler 8 as "sounding rather like a Phil Spector production" which isn't too far from the truth.
James
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The question still remains, what is the best version of any particular recording? To say that the DGG Bernstein Mahler pleases you more than a remastering of the Columbia version does not quite address the issue.
If the best contemporary sound pleases you, what do you do with any performance from an earlier era? By this logic if I like the sound of the 20XX performance by Z best, what happens to the artistic achievements of any earlier time?
The goal, I would imagine, is to present the most convincing sound of any recording so we can access the performance. If, say, the Bernstein Columbia Mahler 3 were a more complete performance overall, would we set it aside because the latest Gilbert or Stenz seems a bit better in sound?
This is both a philosophical and an esthetic discussion.
Many listeners find the Schnabel Beethoven sonata series from the 30s to be the most compelling and revelatory. Should one say that pianist W's version from 2012 has "better" sound on my system and therefore let Schnabel fade?
There are too many pristine and sterile performances around for our own good. The life of the music, even when sound is less than ideal, is the thing.
The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Best to all,
Tom in Vermont
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This is both a philosophical and an esthetic discussion.
Yes, indeed. For me, if the SQ is unacceptable, then I am not very much interested in the performance. There are many excellent versions of Mahler and other composers' works, which sometimes differ from one another by very little.
In those cases, I prefer sound quality I can enjoy, without loud tape hiss, recording artifacts, digital glare, reduced sound stage, and so on.
For example, there is no doubt that Schabel was a great interpreter of Beethoven, but the awful SQ and plethora of missed notes, make it at most a one-and-done for me.
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On a related topic, I've just heard the 24/96 download of Solti's Mahler 8 (available from Linn Records) and I was staggered by how much better it sounds compared with the 24/96 Decca Legends CD. In theory they should sound much the same, but take it from me the download is one of the finest I've heard. It might also make those revisionists who malign Solti acknowledge his considerable talents as a Mahlerian.
Well, you got me all excited about this, but alas, it is not available in the US. >:( >:(
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... For example, the Sony Japan SACDs of Bernstein's first cycle are not nearly as good sonically as the remastered DG CDs of his later one.
To which remastering do refer? I own Lennie's DG cycle in both the original single performace releases and the first remastered box. I really don't find that the first remastering is anything special. Louder => yes, but better=> not really. I know it was remastered again a few years ago, but i didn't purchase it. This is my favorite of all cycles, so if the more recent one is definitive, please let me know.
FWIW, I actually think that the Lennie Sony-Japan SACD's are light years better than their previous CD incarnations.
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I might also mention the Esotereic SACD remastering of the Klemperer Das Lied ESSE-90043, which is also a gorgeous sonic presentation. Christa Ludwig is heard singing from the middle of the orchestra with the score flowing around her. There is now a separate EMI SACD version the Klemperer Das Lied available from Japan that I have not heard.
Tom in Vermont
(sorry for three consecutive posts)
I have the EMI SACD. The sound is gorgeous. You would never know that it is an almost 50 year old recording. It truly sounds as good sonically as a contemporary SACD. The Lennie/Sony ones i refer to in my previous post do not hold a candle to this one.
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... For example, the Sony Japan SACDs of Bernstein's first cycle are not nearly as good sonically as the remastered DG CDs of his later one.
To which remastering do refer? I own Lennie's DG cycle in both the original single performace releases and the first remastered box. I really don't find that the first remastering is anything special. Louder => yes, but better=> not really. I know it was remastered again a few years ago, but i didn't purchase it. This is my favorite of all cycles, so if the more recent one is definitive, please let me know.
FWIW, I actually think that the Lennie Sony-Japan SACD's are light years better than their previous CD incarnations.
Scott,
I own the second remastered version of the Lenny/DG cycle. Compared to the original individual CDs the sound improved but I wouldn't call it significant.
I also have Japanese pressing of the Lenny's DG M2 and M9. They definitely sound better than any other versions. Still, the improvement is only mild.
I agree that the Japanese Lenny/Sony SACDs are fantastic.
John,
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Not sure why there's a controversy here, if there even is one. My comment simply meant that if someone is going to spend $70 for a CD pressing of something that can be had for just over $10, then I certainly would hope that it DOES sound better. My experience with EMI's 'redbook' reissues - such as the Masters series - is that they're usually transferred at a higher level, but don't always sound that much better than the original CD issues (not to mention what one can get out of good British, German or Japanese EMI vinyl pressings). That's a fair statement, isn't it? I'm perfectly aware that very good sounding recordings have been made in the past. For my taste, most anything that had been recorded in London's Kingsway Hall or Vienna's Sofien Saal sounds pretty good. I certainly feel that late analog recordings generally sounded better than the first decade or so of digital recordings. Many of the digital recordings made now are pretty darn good. But it's also not as though man learned how to make decent recordings just this decade. We can all agree on that, right?
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Probably not a disagreement but reflections on the history of recorded performance and different views of sound quality and artistic achievement.
There is a story about Caruso's widow in the mid-1920s. Someone was playing a Caruso record on a wind up gramophone. Caruso's widow heard the strains of her husband's voice from the next room and jumped up in utter shock believing that he had returned from the dead.
Let music flourish wherever and however it can.
Best to all,
Tom in Vermont
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For the record my initial reference to a top EMI analog version is to a good condition original British EMI LP from about 1970, not to a basic CD transfer.
The best of recent SACD remasterings of classic recordings, the Barbirolli M5 and the Klemperer Das Lied being most relevant here, are major issues that capture both beauty and presence of the original tapes in ways that, to my ears, are significantly beyond the standard CDs. And these SACDs capture the sense of space and overtones of the analog originals that open up even more of the achievement of the performances.
The contrast is between analog originals on LP and tape as opposed to standard CD transfers. It is true that CD remastering has improved in a number of ways in recent years, but the emergence of the SACD, at least in specialist markets, shows reasonable dissatisfaction with the limits of the Redbook CD.
A similar improvement can be found on the first Bernstein Mahler series in its SACD incarnation.
The Barbirolli M5 seems to me a more complete performance on the SACD version than on the two or three standard CD versions I have.
In Einsam in Herbst, second song of Das Lied, the hushed oboe and violins, the echoing flute, can be heard in wonder on the Esoteric SACD. And Ludwig's entrance is magical so that you can sense the orchestra and Klemperer listening and breathing with her. It is marvelous to have such wisdom and beauty made even more palpable for us.
Best to all,
Tom in Vermont
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I agree that the Japanese Lenny/Sony SACDs are fantastic.
I have heard a few of these, but to my ears, they sound worse than the remastered DGG CDs of his later cycle. But certainly they must be better than the original issues.
And I just discovered this at amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphonies/dp/B005SJIP1E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331224330&sr=8-1
and wonder if these are new masterings of the Columiba recordings.
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"Let music flourish wherever and however it can."
Sure enough.
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I'm listening to the SACD of the first Bernstein M3 and the sound is quite fine. A mid-hall perspective with lots of ambiance.. The DGG has strong impact, but the earlier one has many virtues of performance and impressive sound at least in the Japanese SACD incarnation.
Best to all,
Tom in Vermont
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I prefer Bernstein's earlier recording, mainly because I really struggle with the broad, BROAD tempi of the DG remake - as strong as the playing is. It's too bad that the Vienna performance that was video taped by Unitel didn't have better sound. As a performance, I find that one sort of a compromise between the two. Later issues in that Unitel series had pretty decent sound (and there's that incredible 8th from the Konzerthaus).
The most incredible EMI item I ever owned was a Japanese vinyl pressing of "The Planets" with A. Previn/L.S.O. (Kingsway Hall, I'm sure). I'm pretty sure it was on four sides (at least three). I eventually sold that pressing and made most of my money back. That was decades ago - I hardly remember it.
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Comment on Schnabel Beethoven.
The Pristine remasterings have an astonishing beauty and nuance of sound. These were of course direct to disk 78s, and Andrew Rose has not only removed surface noise but used new software to remove 78 wow and flutter. As for missed notes here and there, the rumor is much exaggerated.
Most of the performances are unsurpasssed, and the sound quality is astonishingly good.
It would, I believe, be an insufficiently informed decision to forgo such musical wisdom in in any era.
Best to all,
Tom in Vermont
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All this is rather why I've got a sufficiently poor ear that the refinemets of the various reproductions don't do anything much for me; I make do with very ordinary equipment.
As Tom says, the spirit giveth life.
I'll always remember a couple of american music students listening to this Barbirolli and one shaking his head and saying "So many mistakes." [apart from the missing bit of horn solo that recently got re-recorded.]
I don't agree with the concept of a best performance.
Ivor
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This is a great SACD!!! :o
Possibly the best sounding of all remastered Mahler recordings, it pushes the modern technology of sound recording/remastering to the new level.
Never imagined Barbirolli's Mahler would sound this great? Try this one!
John,
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Other than ESOTERIC edition there is EMI TOSHIBA JAPAN's 2SACD (one layer only) release with code: TOGE15018. Does anybody had a chance to compare these two recordings?
BTW I've read somewhere that it's possible to rip SACD layers to DSD files and with using some software there is possibility to listen to high quality files. Would be great to have all available versions of this recording on hard drive with possibility of easy comparing :)
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looks like another SACD version is coming:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Gustav-Mahler-1860-1911-Symphonie-Nr-5/hnum/1054124