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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: Ivor on May 12, 2007, 12:14:02 PM

Title: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Ivor on May 12, 2007, 12:14:02 PM

  In a programme today, "Building a Library", Peter Quantrill compared available versions of M.9 on CD and DVD.

  Before revealing all, anyone care to nominate:-

a) their nomination for the best (you may have to give a few as the discussion was about available in UK oerformances).

b) their favourites

c) underrated performances , especially if/because obscure [my favourite category].


I've no idea which the best might be. There are inummerable imponderables to sort thru.

My favourite is the 50s Horenstein,mostly because he's such a favourite conductor of mine. I know he's a bit staid (or even rigid) for some. It didn't "win" because of orchesral error.


Quantrill had a winner,a medium-price runner-up,and a DVD choice.

I'll say no more - more fun that way. All round,I hope.




     Ivor

PS. Seems like I can claim post 200. (What a nerd !!)

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: John Kim on May 12, 2007, 02:05:48 PM

My favorites are,

Bernstein/BSO/Memories (live, Tanglewood)
Bernstein/RCO/DGG
Neumann/CPO/Exton
Ancerl/CPO/Supraphon
Inoue/NJP/Exton
Chailly/RCO/Decca

Maazel/BRSO/BRSO (DVD)

I think they picked,

Abbado/BPO/DGG
Ancerl/CPO/Supraphon

Bernstein/VPO/DGG (DVD)

John,

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: barry guerrero on May 12, 2007, 02:43:30 PM

John is the king of M9, so take his word as the gospel truth. That said, I'm pretty happy with the Barenboim for a single disc 9th.

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Leo K on May 12, 2007, 02:47:24 PM

I agree about John's choices...I'm even trying out those Exton recordings based on his recommendations.

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: John Kim on May 12, 2007, 03:33:46 PM

Barry, thanks for your nice word

My main issue with the Abbado/BPO/DG is its sound which is severely restricted in its dynamic range (listen to climaxes in I.), lacking details. It sounds as if the entire recording was made on an old analogue machine. I am pretty sure a local radio station or some independent focal was involved in the recording, and when DGG later found out about the tape they decided to issue it despite the problems. It's so unfortunate because the performance itself is quite estimable; I can only guess what the real concert might have sounded like...

The new recording by Barenboim shares some of the same problem but to a much lesser degree.

By all means try to get hold of the Inoue/NJPO/Exton. This one boasts some of the wildest, furiously aggressive passages in the grand "Bernstein-Tennstedt" style. Yet the conductor never loses the forest in the name of trees, holding the entire piece in a most cogent format imaginable. The playing by the Japanese orchestra is no way on a par with VPO, BPO, or even NYPO, but they have plenty of lung power to realize Inoue's powerful conceptions. The sound (HDCD) is simply fabulous. Timings are 29:52, 17:06, 14:01, 24:09.

Now, the next is Kobayashi/JPO/Exton...

John,

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Leo K on May 12, 2007, 09:01:41 PM

I'm really looking forward to listening to the Inoue...I don't have HDCD player, but I'm sure it will still sound great.  John, your description sounds fantastic and that kind of interpetation is right up my alley.  I also ordered the Neumann and new Kobayashi M9 (the Exton label).  Again, I don't have a SACD player but I hope the sound quality will still be good.

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: sperlsco on May 12, 2007, 10:19:04 PM

Quote from: John Kim on May 12, 2007, 02:05:48 PM

My favorites are,

Bernstein/BSO/Memories (live, Tanglewood)
Bernstein/RCO/DGG
Neumann/CPO/Exton
Ancerl/CPO/Supraphon
Inoue/NJP/Exton
Chailly/RCO/Decca

Maazel/BRSO/BRSO (DVD)

John,

I'll second all of those, except for the Neumann which I have never heard.  Others that I would add to my first tier of favorites are:

Abbado/BPO/95' Mahlerfest
Ozawa/SKO
Dohnanyi/Cleveland
Karajan/BPO (Live)
Levine/Philly
de Waart/Netherlands PO
Inbal/Frankfurt
Segerstam/Danish NRSO
Lopez-Cobos/Cinncy (IIRC, but its been a long time)
Eschenbach/NDRSO (I "think" this was an NDR subscriber release, I only have a CD-R). 

It's strange, but that Maazel DVD is the only one of Maazel's Mahler that I really like without reservation. To make it worse, Massimo (who dislikes Maazel's Mahler even more than I do) actually got this for me on one of his Japan trips.  I'm sure he would have been embarrassed if anyone saw it in his hands.   :P

Are you saying that this silly radio program forced you to pick just one or two?  What's the fun of that?   ::)

 

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: John Kim on May 12, 2007, 10:47:55 PM

Quote from: sperlsco on May 12, 2007, 10:19:04 PM

[Abbado/BPO/95' Mahlerfest
Ozawa/SKO
Dohnanyi/Cleveland
Karajan/BPO (Live)
Levine/Philly
de Waart/Netherlands PO
Inbal/Frankfurt
Segerstam/Danish NRSO
Lopez-Cobos/Cinncy (IIRC, but its been a long time)
Eschenbach/NDRSO (I "think" this was an NDR subscriber release, I only have a CD-R). 

It's strange, but that Maazel DVD is the only one of Maazel's Mahler that I really like without reservation.  

Scott,

I agree with all of these additional choices except for the live Karajan. I have explained why I am not a great fan of the Karajan a numerous times. To my ears his is an "intensely beautiful without a bite". The Main problem with him is that he was basically incapable of expressing the vulgar, sarcastic, and even rough elements in Mahler's music. For the same reason his Stravinksy is intense but sounds all wrong. Try his Rite of Spring. One example: in M9:I many passages get unnecessarily smooth treatment to the point that when the orchestra goes for full throttle it all sounds inappropriate, rhythmically weak. Just intense and beautiful, that's it (listen to the way he handles the final climax).

John,

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Leo K on May 12, 2007, 10:54:03 PM

Thats a good description of the Karajan there John...although I have to admit the "beautiful" smoothless makes this one of my all time favorite performances.  Karajan's M9 is more from the viewpoint of a Monk in deep meditation.

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Leo K on May 12, 2007, 11:02:04 PM

I want to add that I really like the Abbado/BPO/DG M9...it reminds me of his recent BPO 6th too...transparent with nice turns of phrases and full of character...good flow.

However when it comes to brass-tax, my favorites are the death obsessed M9th's...the ones that usually take up two disks. 

 

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: John Kim on May 12, 2007, 11:07:41 PM

A live Waart/SFSO concert from early 80's(?) was one of the all time greatest M9ths ever! We should pester SFSO to release this great performance. Absolutely gorgeous playing (perhaps the best playing in this symphony I've ever heard), crystal clear delination of all the instrumental lines in a perfectly calculated balance and dynamics, a very cogent structure not wanting vital emotions or expressions. How did they manage to create such a sound in SF?

John,

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Jeff Wozniak on May 13, 2007, 04:23:26 AM

Klemperer EMI GROC

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: barry guerrero on May 13, 2007, 04:55:32 AM

I do like the Klemperer, which reminds me a bit of the Giulini.  Leo, you'd really like Giulini, I think.

Barry

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Leo K on May 13, 2007, 05:12:33 AM

I've been meaning to listen to the Giulini (I downloaded it from some Japanese blog some time ago)...I'll give it a listen.


I heard the Lenny Tanglewood again tonight...my favorite 9th ever...incredible.  Earlier I heard the Abbado/BPO and Ancerl for the first time.  They are great, but perhaps too fast in tempo for my taste ultimately...the Abbado is quite moving at the very end though.  The Barenboim remains my favorite single disker.  I've been on a M9 binge all week...with no sign of tiring  ;D

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: barry guerrero on May 13, 2007, 05:15:20 AM

"I've been on a M9 binge all week...with no sign of tiring"

.    .   in that case, be sure to work in the Giulini. It's quite special in its own way.

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: bluesbreaker on May 13, 2007, 07:47:01 AM

Quote from: John Kim on May 12, 2007, 10:47:55 PM

Scott,

I agree with all of these additional choices except for the live Karajan. I have explained why I am not a great fan of the Karajan a numerous times. To my ears his is an "intensely beautiful without a bite". The Main problem with him is that he was basically incapable of expressing the vulgar, sarcastic, and even rough elements in Mahler's music. For the same reason his Stravinksy is intense but sounds all wrong. Try his Rite of Spring. One example: in M9:I many passages get unnecessarily smooth treatment to the point that when the orchestra goes for full throttle it all sounds inappropriate, rhythmically weak. Just intense and beautiful, that's it (listen to the way he handles the final climax).

John,

I dislike the Karajan also, but the craps here are the inner Scherzos. Never heard such dull Landler and R-B! >:(
The Adagio is beautiful, but too icy.

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Leo K on May 13, 2007, 03:44:21 PM

John, do you still hold the live Ozawa M9/BSO/4-20-2002 in high esteem?

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: John Kim on May 13, 2007, 03:52:07 PM

Leo,

Yes, I do. I quite like it, even (slightly) prefer this one over Ozawa's new recording with the Saito Kinen Orchestra available on Japanese Sony. The live De Waart/SFSO I mentioned and Ozawa/BSO/Philips are very similar i.t.o. orchestral textures and a few interpretive points. In other words, both are outstanding. You won't hear better playing in better balance. Not that they lack expressive touches. They have ardor and passion, whenever needed.

John,

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: John Kim on May 13, 2007, 03:57:43 PM

Leo,

I realized you mentioned the live 2002 one, not the Philips CD. Yes, I like the 2002 live concert even better than the official Philips release which was recorded circa 1991(?). Pity that they could not release Ozawa's final concert....probably because of the last few mini. in finale plagued by a terrible audience; the person was coughing as if his mission was to ruin the entire concert. It's possible Ozawa didn't endorse it because of the coughing.

John,

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Leo K on May 13, 2007, 04:03:15 PM

Yes thats the concert...I haven't heard it yet but plan on listening today.  It's too bad to hear of the coughing fit though.

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Leo K on May 13, 2007, 04:44:25 PM

John, you mentioned you also liked the Bernstein RCO M9 on DG...would you care to post your thoughts on this recording?  I can't find any of your reviews of this in the old Mahler board archive...thanks!

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Leo K on May 14, 2007, 07:13:21 AM

The Giulini M9 is truly out of this world.  Unlike most M9's, I don't really feel the intimacy of the personal here, rather, I hear the cry of the universe, or the problem of life (which is death) played out on a larger stage.  Giulini's performance has the feeling of welcome surrender...the most surrender I ever heard from an M9 performance.  There are many instances where the playing nearly fades away, almost for good, and then the energy is set in motion again.  The great climaxes are a major exception...throwing off the building cry quickly and savagely.  It is almost as if the music is trying to avoid the fortissimo and agony...would rather meditate, but of course life is also about action, as the two middle movements reluctantly enact.  It is a great performance and I couldn't help but come back to it three times the last day or so.

It's hard to express in words the effectiveness of the Giulini M9...below are images that show what I perceived with "the mind's eye" while I heard this recording:

1st Movement:

(http://thinkbulb.com/images/rothko-mark-blue-and-grey-3500039.jpg)



2nd Movement:

(http://photos5.flickr.com/7166922_42c7b3fe9b.jpg)



3rd Movement:

(http://www.harley.com/art/abstract-art/images/(gorky)-one-year-the-milkweed.jpg)


4th Movement:

(http://www.albrightknox.org/ArtStart/art/K1957_6.jpg)



--Leo

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: barry guerrero on May 14, 2007, 09:33:06 AM

Cool. Here are some images I think of when hearing the Giulini M9:

(http://pintsizepub.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/Pilsner.jpg)

(http://www.zcu.cz/plzen/com/brewery/brewery.gif)

(http://www.sfbappa.org/SF28.images/9%20BEST%20BARRY%20BONDS%20PHOTO/0HM1.JPG)

(http://daboogiedownbronx.mlblogs.com/da_bronx_bombers/images/capt1azbm10602281818giants_spring_baseba.jpg)

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Leo K on May 14, 2007, 02:09:28 PM

 :D :D :D ;D

Now I'll always remember your images when I listen to the Giulini!!! 

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: sperlsco on May 14, 2007, 04:24:25 PM

Quote from: Leo K on May 14, 2007, 02:09:28 PM

:D :D :D ;D

Now I'll always remember your images when I listen to the Giulini!!! 

LOL  ;D I'll second the hearty laugh I got out of that. 

BTW, after making my list of favorite M9's, I was looking through my collection to see which ones did not make the cut and why.  I pulled out the Giulini/CSO one and listened to the first three movments.  It is a remarkable performance for its textural clarity.  At his slow tempos, you can hear every single bit of detail and all of the layers of music very clearly defined.  The playing is equal parts sharp and beautiful.  Eventhough the conducting is purposeful, it just lacks the intensity that I want and ultimately fails to move me as an M9.  However, I strongly recommend that everyone hear it. 

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Leo K on May 14, 2007, 04:46:45 PM

Scott, I like your phrase "sharp and beautiful"...that fits the Giulini really well.  Yeah, I took the lack of intensity as a kind of surrender...indeed the tension beautifully falls behind...a beautiful "downward" spiral perhaps.  An original vision for this work.


--Leo

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Leo K on May 14, 2007, 05:02:04 PM

Quote from: John Kim on May 13, 2007, 03:57:43 PM

Leo,

I realized you mentioned the live 2002 one, not the Philips CD. Yes, I like the 2002 live concert even better than the official Philips release which was recorded circa 1991(?). Pity that they could not release Ozawa's final concert....probably because of the last few mini. in finale plagued by a terrible audience; the person was coughing as if his mission was to ruin the entire concert. It's possible Ozawa didn't endorse it because of the coughing.

John,

Wow...this live Ozawa M9 is addicting (on my 3rd listen).  To try to explain how great it is would only be preaching to the choir.  Strangley, the man's coughs seems to add to the final proceeding of the falling music, as if it's the soundtrack to a death-bed scene, where a man is coughing during the final moments of his life.  It's quite touching and surreal...poignant...a strange sense of theater.  Not unlike the sound of children on the lawn at Tanglewood in Lennies recording.

--Leo

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Leo K on May 14, 2007, 06:33:22 PM

The Levine Philly M9 (1979) is like the Mile Davis/Gil Evans of M9's.  What a celebration of timbre and color!!  What lushness and beauty and tone!!  The production reminds me of the Davis/Evans Jazz recordings from the fifties, so much so that I'm expecting Miles to pick up his horn during the Rondo Burlesque.  This recording sounds great on my Grado SR80 headphones...it doesn't sound boxy at all, but rich and deep (although the strings are still sharp).  I really love the whole performance, in particular the 1st and 3rd movements...and the 4th.  In my opinion, this 9th is from the viewpoint of one who has loved deeply and lived a full life in the world, yet there is much melancholy and regret.  I could go on, but again, I'm preaching to the choir.


--Leo

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: John Kim on May 14, 2007, 08:25:24 PM

Leo,

Levine's new recording with MPO is also pretty darn good. The main differences are Levine's tighter control of his orchestra and structure of the music (especially in I.), and the difference timbres between the two orchestras. Yes, the sound is different too (digital vs. analogue?). But it is Philadelphia Orch who triumphs in the great finale with ravishing sound; OTOH the Munich Phil strings sound less passionate, less involved. But I find the Munich version slightly preferrable in the first movt.

John,

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Leo K on May 14, 2007, 09:00:51 PM

John,

Thanks for the heads up on the new Levine...I will definitely check it out.  It sounds like Levine has changed his concept somewhat.


--Leo

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Stefano on May 18, 2007, 02:19:34 PM

Anyone of you have mentioned Rattle/VPO. My champion in M9 is Giulini, but my second pick is Rattle's version, along with Levine/Philly.
Ciao, Stefano.

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: John Kim on May 18, 2007, 03:55:28 PM

Quote from: Stefano on May 18, 2007, 02:19:34 PM

Anyone of you have mentioned Rattle/VPO. My champion in M9 is Giulini, but my second pick is Rattle's version, along with Levine/Philly.
Ciao, Stefano.

Uhm... Rattle/VPO/EMI, but aren't you bothered by the sonics? It's terrible...

John,

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Stefano on May 18, 2007, 05:49:11 PM

Uhm... Rattle/VPO/EMI, but aren't you bothered by the sonics? It's terrible...

John,
[/quote]

Yes, it's a live recording and the sonics isn't so good, but - compared with Giulini or Levine - is decent. In this moment, I don't remember a great, great M9 with excellent sound quality, sob!!
Inbal or Bruno Walter, perhaps  ;) 
Stefano.

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: barry guerrero on May 19, 2007, 02:33:49 PM

I like Rattle's conducting as well. The VPO play with a passion too. But the balances are kind of a mess. The horns are too loud, and it sounds as though a main microphone were right over the tuba. It sounds as though they let 8 or 9 horns play that day (the piece calls for four).

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Wunderhorn on May 20, 2007, 02:13:31 AM

:-[

For starters, there are far too many top ranking recordings for there to be one ultimate recording. With Mahler being as popular as he is, there are a couple top ranking recording a year of M9. It is becoming absurd now, not to mention extremely decadent.

:-[

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: Ivor on May 20, 2007, 11:43:24 AM

Sorry for the delay and here's what the BBC reviewer said. Incidentally,the remit is to choose a performance for a record library. Many reviewers virtually pick up to half-a-dozen by means of runners-up,best choices at full-, mid-, and bargain price plus DVDs now.

And I've noticed that several posters here have picked their no.1 too.

Ist movement.

Karajan.About one passage,the violins are playing too loud. With K.,everything is smoothed over.

bernstein - occasionally,they're not playing what's written.

Giulini. it's "the slowest on record (pause) and it feels like it." tho' if you want M. as tho' it were Bruckner,elegaically,then he's very good.

Bertini,Ozawa,Levine and Tennstedt are conceptions rather like Giulini.

Horenstein '66/BBBSO. The bass clarinet goes missing completely "and his earlier recording is no better."

Barbirolli.  trumpet misses one bar,and sounds unsafe in the next. The violins sound like "they're skating on thin ice"

Then he said,"This is how it goes",and played
Kondrashin whose orchestra plays with force and "the height of virtuosity",then

Barshai, good if not reach the level of Kondrashin's orchestra.

He did a riff about orchestra for a long time objecting to having to play "this rubbish" and the attitude showing up in their plating. So,

Walter  late 30s . The VPO "sound like they're sight-reading"

Mitropoulos,Klemperer,Rattle and Maazel don't sound much better, in terms of accuracy

MTThomas and SFSO don't dig deep. For a passage of scariness,the performance "wouldn't scare the skin off a rice pudding."

Kubelik  brings more of the sense of the sinister.

maderna  has fine playing from "exuberant BBC horns"

Abbado and GMYouthO  really "lays into the march".

2nd Movement

Mahler insists on the movement should sound like a rough and peasant dance.

Boulez sounds "far too artful"

Walter early 60s "shows he hadn't lost his sense of humour - authentic in the best sense." the playing of the CSO not too secure.

Sinopoli   goes in for "self-conscious galumphing"

At the end,Kubelik finds the right sense of dissolution.

3rd Movement

Barenboim   is "literal and small-scale" as tho' he'd rather it was more like a 2-part invention.

Ancerl     His "skill is simply to let the contradictions (in the musical argument) speak for themselves."

Few conductors give the impression of looking like they are losing control at the movement's end.
Abbado and Bernstein/conzertgebouw do,by contrast.

4th Movement

Abbado/BPO  "nobody matches the BPO strings"

Bernstein/VPO  "nobody matches Bernstein's magnetism, and this is the DVD choice.

Ancerl's players  play "with noble purity that I find more durable than on more overtly exquisite alternatives,

so Ancerl is the mid-price choice.

    "The greatest performances bed their tempo to our receptive inclinations,allowing us to understand the work in different lights according to our own states,whether they seek catharsis or consolation. Abbado's recording (the live one from '99) does this.
    "More than any other conductor,Abbado does what mahler asks for on every page,yet is able to carvs something unique out of this careful attendance."



   There you go.

   I think it's a useful programme if you use it right. The reviewers are usually very sharp about deficiencies,and listen very closely,a good teaching-one-to-listen aid. There are good examples above.

  my biggest beef is that  the qualities and insights of the dismissed performances are barely pointed to,and i think that's a different prog.

  My second-biggest (I have two !) is that performance is the thing almost more than the music (tho' that's again a poiint of the prog !!)

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: davidalt on May 21, 2007, 05:15:03 PM

Good morning,
I'm new here. I see praises for Bernstein's Mahler 9 on Memories. Can anyone tell me about the sound quality of that performance?  For that matter, what about that label generally? I'm also looking at Tennstedt's Beethoven performances there. Thanks.

Title: Re: Best (!!) M.9
Post by: John Kim on May 21, 2007, 05:59:13 PM

Welcome to the Mahler board!

As I said previously, the (stereo) sound quality of Lenny/BSO M9 on Memories label is pretty good, much better than the previous release on another pirate label, Sadarna. They apparently did a 24 bit remastering for this latest release. The recording level of the first movt. is somewhat lower than the other three movts. but otherwise it is a decent stereo recording from 1979.

John,