gustavmahlerboard.com
General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: barry guerrero on May 17, 2016, 12:14:16 AM
-
Any INFORMED opinions? . . . I'm leaning more towards the Nott box. Unfortunately, neither one has recorded "DLvdE" or a complete 10th of any sort. Oehms didn't bother to include Stenz's fine "Des Knaben Wunderhorn" either.
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/gustav-mahler-symphonien-nr-1-9/hnum/3144535?lang=en
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/gustav-mahler-symphonien-nr-1-10/hnum/8534447
-
The Stenz box says CDs. There is no indication that it contains SACDs.
-
The Stenz box says CDs. There is no indication that it contains SACDs.
For sure. My box says regular CDs, and they don't load as SACDs in my universal format disk player. A BIG disappointment that they're not SACDs!
Wade
-
Oh wow, I hadn't noticed that. No wonder the Stenz box is cheaper. I'll be sure NOT to get rid of the few Stenz sacd hybrids that I have.
So if I have my facts straight, Nott, Zinman and MTT/SFS are the only box sets of #1-9 that are SACD (?).
-
Oh wow, I hadn't noticed that. No wonder the Stenz box is cheaper. I'll be sure NOT to get rid of the few Stenz sacd hybrids that I have.
So if I have my facts straight, Nott, Zinman and MTT/SFS are the only box sets of #1-9 that are SACD (?).
That seems to be correct. I have M2, M3, and M10 by Zinman, and they are SACD. I preferred Zinman's M2 over his M3, and his M10 is the Carpenter version, which I don't particularly care for. Of those three Zinman Mahler recordings, I found the sound full over the entire spectrum, but the orchestra was too distantly recorded. I did a calculation of buying the entire Stenz cycle on SACD as single disks, and I would have paid over $200!
A short while back, I made mention here that the box Stenz cycle was regular CD, and asked fellow member John T. Kim to look into whether or not Oehms was going to eventually release the entire cycle in a boxed SACD set, but you may have missed that, Barry. However, over at the Facebook Mahler forum, a member there did actually contact Oehms as to whether or not the cycle would be released as a SACD box, and they told him that there were no plans to do that.
I haven't yet listened to my Stenz box, and would appreciate any comments you may have on the few Stenz SACDs you may have, Barry.
Wade
-
I have his "DKW", M4, M7 and M8. They're all very good and generally on the quick side. His M7 has THE best finale that I know of, and his M8 has THE best ending to Part II of any M8 ever. I actually prefer Nott on both of those symphonies, but Stenz always gets his endings right. They're generally fast and exciting performances. John Kim is very enthusiastic about Stenz's M6, but it is on two discs. Of recent vintage M6 recordings I prefer the Harding/BRSO one, even though the sound quality isn't all that great (recorded in the Philharmonie am Gasteig, as opposed to the Herkulessaal). That aren't that many great "Des Knaben Wunderhorn" recordings, so Stenz's comes in handy for me (it's very good).
-
Barry, where did you get the Nott box? It's not available on U.S. Amazon or Arkiv Music.
Thanks, Wade
-
If this matters or not, there is no complete cycle recorded in DSD. These are PCM masters converted to DSD for SACD. This is very common and typical. This doesn't really matter to me, just some info.
The Redbook layer of the Stenz Mahler cycle is excellent, I doubt you could A/B from the SACD layer. Oehms does good work with their mastering and engineering. I have really enjoyed the recordings I have with Stenz, especially the 3rd, 5th, 7th and 8th. I can also admit that the recorded sound may have something to do with that.
You could also say that Inbal has a complete cycle on SACD with Exton, though you'd have some Czech and some Tokyo Met recordings. These make up some of my favorite recordings, period. Inbal's singing, is can get slightly annoying.
Nott hasn't been on my radar, so nothing to offer there.
-
I don't own the Nott box. That's why I was looking for input. I just own M6, M7 and M8 with Nott. The link above is to JPC in Germany. But if it's available there, it's only a matter of time until it shows up in a Naxos USA new release booklet. Naxos now distributes a ton of labels in the U.S. including Chandos, Exton (just a few selected titles) and Supraphon.
-
I'll wait for the Stenz to show up on Ebay.
Sacd: alas, seems on it's way out. Very few released being done this way now. With the vast majority of people listening to downloads or streaming on smart phones or worse, sound quality isn't important. And a well-done red book cd can stand up to sacd quite well. What is better is Blu Ray-A. Huge sound possibilities, unfortunately not being realized - and may never be. With the classical music market in near-collapse, and the record companies churning out big boxes from their large libraries, I wouldn't count on much. There's just not much interest in physical disks anymore - classical listeners excepted. And we're only 2-3% of the population.
-
I used to have a (now deceased) DVD player with SACD capability, but I am just running a two-channel setup. Playing SACDs in stereo mode, I heard minimal difference as compared to plain old Redbook. I'd expected that the extended frequency range would be more noticeable in the highs, but it seemed that the lows had a bit more "air" around them, and highs were barely distinguishable.
It's obviously not a scientific comparison. Still, an interesting question would be that when limited to two channels, is a $120 DVD player in SACD stereo going to perform better than a $300 Redbook CD player? Maybe not.
On the Zinman set, aside from the performances being variable, none of the recordings sounded that good to me, and I wondered if they are better in surround.
-
So if I have my facts straight, Nott, Zinman and MTT/SFS are the only box sets of #1-9 that are SACD (?).
There's also the Gergiev/LSO SACD box set. (DSD recording)
As for Inbal on SACD =>
First there is a live TMSO 6th on Fontec. (recorded on dec 19th 2007)
Then he recorded two Mahler cycles for Exton.
The first between 04/2008 and 03/2012 with the CPO & the TMSO. (this cycle lacks the 6th & 9th symphonies)
The second between 11/2012 and 07/2014 with only the TMSO. (This cycle lacks "Das Lied".)
(I have collected all the Inbal Mahler SACD's; have started now to collect his earlier Frankfurt Denon cycle (on blu-spec cd).
Inbal still may have a Mahler cycle (or two) in him.
(recent Inbal 80th birthday interview => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut_90hQeyBQ )
As for the Nott vs. Stenz debate. I was aware that the Stenz boxset does not include the SACD, so it's of little interest to me. (I already own his 4th, 5th and 8th) The Nott boxset however sounds interesting.
-
SACD: alas, seems on it's way out. Very few released being done this way now. With the vast majority of people listening to downloads or streaming on smart phones or worse, sound quality isn't important. And a well-done red book cd can stand up to sacd quite well. What is better is Blu Ray-A. Huge sound possibilities, unfortunately not being realized - and may never be. With the classical music market in near-collapse, and the record companies churning out big boxes from their large libraries, I wouldn't count on much. There's just not much interest in physical disks anymore - classical listeners excepted. And we're only 2-3% of the population.
The SACD format may not be seeing as many releases as before, but it seems still that runs of a particular album will be manufactured in that format if it is felt that sales will be brisk enough to justify the costs of manufacturing.
Downloads are certainly most prevalent in the popular music format, though it is best if a remastering of a given classical recording is available in a format higher than 16-bit 44.1-kHz format, which is no better than regular CD. Particularly if the recording was remastered in 24-bit, 96-kHz format, at least. The Kubelik and Gergiev complete Mahler cycles are the only ones I'm aware of, that are available at HDTracks.com, though I haven't downloaded either of those. The one recording I've downloaded from them that I felt was worth every penny I paid was EMI's Klemperer Brahms Requiem, and that remastering has finally eliminated the distortion that was evident in all previous releases of that recording, LP, tape, or CD. Many of the famous RCA Reiner and Munch Red Seal recordings have become available from HDTracks in 24-bit, 176-kHz format. Those will produce files that are quite large. One thing that's important to realize before downloading 24-bit recordings is to make sure that your equipment (other than a computer connected to a room stereo system as opposed to desktop speakers) is able to play 24-bit files. Most CD players cannot play 24-bit mastered sound files, only 16-bit. HDTracks does provide a sample 24-bit file that you can download to see if your equipment is able to play 24-bit files. A universal-format disk player is generally the only type that can do this, provided the circuitry has been pre-programmed to play 24-bit files, be they via a flash drive, memory stick, or DVD disk.
As far as Blu-ray audio is concerned, the record manufactures have been abysmally SLOW in producing recordings in that format. Virtually all of the ones available are remasterings by Universal from the Decca, DG, and Philips analogue catalogue, of which the Mehta M2 and Solti M8 are the only Mahler ones available.
Wade
-
As far as Blu-ray audio is concerned, (...) the Mehta M2 and Solti M8 are the only Mahler ones available.
Wade
There are three more readily available on blu-ray audio => the Karajan M5 (on DG), the Antoni Wit M8 (on Naxos) and the Mehta M3/M5 (on Farao).
These two blu-ray audio discs seem to be out of print => the Krager M2 (on HDTT), the Wynn Morris M8/M10 (on HDTT).
-
"First there is a live TMSO 6th on Fontec. (recorded on dec 19th 2007)"
It's VERY good!
-
In have the Inbal/TMSO/Exton SACD (2nd cycle) M2 and M4 and have heard the rest. If nothing, the whole cycle is worth acquiring and hearing just for the heck of the gorgeous sound. It's probably the greatest Mahler recording sound Ive ever heard and that says a lot.
As for the performance, I'd rate the M2, M3, M4, M7 and M10 among the best out on the market. The rest aren't far behind but I felt the M6, M9 somewhat low-keyed. The M5th is just too fast for my liking, while the M8 is marred by Inbal's excessive groaning. Otherwise, this is a high octane M8th from start to finish.
I also have Inbal/TMSO/Exton M2nd SACD (first cycle) which is also outstanding. But I slightly prefer the refinement in both the playing & sound of the later cycle.
John
-
I have only M7 and M9 from the Nott cycle so this budget priced SACD box set is worth acquiring for me.
I like Nott's M9th very much but find the acoustics in I. strangely recessed with dynamic range compressed during climaxes. How do your copies sound in this regard?
John
-
In have the Inbal/TMSO/Exton SACD (2nd cycle) M2 and M4 and have heard the rest. If nothing, the whole cycle is worth acquiring and hearing just for the heck of the gorgeous sound. It's probably the greatest Mahler recording sound Ive ever heard and that says a lot.
As for the performance, I'd rate the M2, M3, M4, M7 and M10 among the best out on the market. The rest aren't far behind but I felt the M6, M9 somewhat low-keyed. The M5th is just too fast for my liking, while the M8 is marred by Inbal's excessive groaning. Otherwise, this is a high octane M8th from start to finish.
I also have Inbal/TMSO/Exton M2nd SACD (first cycle) which is also outstanding. But I slightly prefer the refinement in both the playing & sound of the later cycle.
John
On my system, Inbal doesn't groan, he is actually singing along with whatever he finds important. This is on EVERY disc. It much more prominent on the Tokyo Met discs, too.
Interesting that you'd find the Inbal 3rd with Tokyo not too fast. It's the fastest in the entire catalogue. To the point that I wonder if Exton was putting them under extreme time constraint because it was costing so much.
-
I have the Stenz box set and have now listened to all except the M10 Adagio. In general, they are strong performances, and antiphonally divided violin sections are always welcome in Mahler. It strikes me as odd, though, that at medium and higher volume levels, contrapuntal details that are audible in many other recordings, even older ones, tend to be masked. Related, and also not helpful, is that the horns tend to be watery, and I noted instances where horns and/or trumpets should punctuate the texture, yet rhythmically and harmonically they seem to be buried.
I have enjoyed this set and will continue to do so, with the above caveats. I'm curious if the same problems are present in SACD surround.