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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: barry guerrero on August 21, 2016, 06:17:34 PM
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Picked up a 'burn job' of a live Mahler 3 with Danielle Gatti and Christianne Stotijn from the Concertgebouw. Even with compressed sound and less than ideal balances, it absolutely blows the doors off the Jansons/Concertgebouw M3 (good riddance).
Several decades ago, when Gatti and the Royal Phil. performed M5 at Davies Hall (S.F.), we were introduced to Gatti backstage. I told him then I thought that - one day - he should get the Concertgebouw. That day has arrived.
Here's where I got it from. They make absolutely no mention of it, so I have no idea HOW I found a link to the Gatti/Concertgebouw M3. But they have it.
http://www.operapassion.com/new-mp4-s-july-2016.html
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That RPO M5 is a real sleeper. Gatti and the orchestra absolutely pour their heart and soul into the music, and that brass section is mind-blowing. I don't know if it's still in print, but God it's good. I look forward to Gatti's Mahler with the RCO.
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I thought the first and third and fourth movements of his M5 were rather 'ordinary', but the start of the 2nd movement was amazing, and the finale was - as ALWAYS - quite effective (unless the conductor does the big 'slow down' too soon before the reprise of the main brass chorale near the end). They have solid brass in the RPO, but as with many British string sections - for some odd reason - they were slightly under-powered in the celli and double basses. English orchestras always have those somewhat odd sounding clarinets, and I'm no fan of the Paiste tam-tams they use. In short, the RPO ain't the Concertgebouw. Although they may have more 'aggressive' brass (particularly the horns).
Gatti's M4 with the RPO was more to my liking, and had the excellent Ruth Ziesack for the soprano part.
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Yeah, the RPO strings aren't much to write home about, but their gutsy brass section shines, and Gatti is hugely exciting. A similar opinion applies to Mackerras' RLPO reading which is also fantastic (and shares much of the same virtues and vices).
I've always had a problem with the RCO's lower brass section: much too tepid most of the time, and when they play out the sound is narrow and shrill. This probably explains why I've never warmed to any of their Mahler 6ths (which absolutely need a huge lower brass sound after those hammerblows). On the other hand, they're quite successful at Mahler 5 (Haitink Kerstmatinees, Chailly and Jansons are all very fine).
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Yeah, sometimes the Concertgebouw has the opposite problem. Their horns blend real well with the woodwinds, but don't usually cut through a lot. I think that has a lot to do with how they're positioned in the hall. Their woodwinds and percussion are excellent. But yes, their low brass could stand to be a tad stronger.
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Well, I'll be attending Gatti's M2 concert two weeks from now. I'll try and report back here how the brass section performed.
Cheers!
Freddy
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Well, it's been almost 3 weeks now...
This was possibly the best M2 I have ever heard, and most certainly the best I've heard 'live'!
Gatti got the orchestra to play very blunt, rough and even aggresive. There were some minor mistakes in playing because of this, and at one point an offstage french horn was even a quarter note too early, but still... Gatti and his orchestra were able to tell me a story that was extremely interesting and exciting to listen to, and kept me on the edge of my seat for the entire evening!
It was filmed, presumably for TV-broadcast, but this may well end up on YouTube or even on a RCO-Live bluray-disc! Yay!!
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Thanks Freddy. It's great to hear that Gatti is lighting a fire underneath them. It was very odd how Jansons' Mahler could sound so ossified in Amsterdam, yet his Mahler in Munich and Oslo could sound just the opposite. Anyway, it would be great if RCO Live (whatever it's called) preserves it.
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Hi Barry,
I notice that MediciTV mentions it, and names C-Major as producer... so that might point in the direction of u future release on DVD/BluRay...
Yay!!
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Sweet. Thanks Freddie. 8)
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'This was possibly the best M2 I have ever heard, and most certainly the best I've heard 'live'!'
Did we hear the same concert? There's no accounting for taste of course and I certainly respect your opinion, but I thought it was a terrible, shallow and loud hack job (as usual with Gatti). Or, as an orchestra member told me afterwords: 'He's just not a good enough conductor.' I alway believed the finale of the Second is one of Mahler weakest compositions, and it takes a really bad conductor like Gatti to convince me I'm right.
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I'm not in any way denying you of your opinion, as I'm a great believer that two people can hear the same exact thing and have opposite, subjective reactions to it. As a musician myself, I would just warn one not to take the opinions of individual musicians too seriously. Here in S.F., the musicians of the S.F. Symphony started a nasty rumor than Herbert Blomstedt didn't really know music all that well. They then got someone very different when Tilson-Thomas took over. Now, 25 years later, Blomstedt is highly revered as a guest conductor and as "Conductor Laureate", while the sun is quickly fading on MTT's tenure here. The music industry is loaded with examples like this, and I think that orchestra musicians are often times the poorest judges of the results of their own labors. What the musicians in S.F. didn't like was that Blomstedt was such a 'task master' in rehearsal - something that American musicians are sensitive to, because of the bad-old times when people like Fritz Reiner and Arthur Rodzinski were almost the norm (Szell could be pretty tough too).
But let me take this in another direction: is having someone who is sort of an interpretive maverick, such as Daniele Gatti, really any worse than the endless parade of four-square, cookie cutter, "Mahler lite" performances emanating from the likes of Mariss Jansons? . . .
Under Jansons, the more 'classical' approach of Bernard Haitink had simply become ossified. That's my view of it. The Concertgebouw was due to go in a completely different direction, or just learn to perform conductor-less. Regardless, I'd like to hear the results for myself and judge for myself. Who knows . . . it might just be that Gatti does M3 really well but not M2 (however, I'm incline to trust what Freddie says).
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Here are three endings of M2 with the Concertgebouw, one each with Gatti, Chailly and Jansons. Without further editorializing, I think Chailly may be the best compromise of the three. I would put Jansons at the bottom.
Gatti: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DDmXoW4dFE
Chailly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF_pWIBTWw8
Jansons: (aka "Beaver Face"): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHsFIv8VA7w
OT, but here's an interview with Gatti at La Scala, Milan regarding "Die Meistersinger" and Wagner in general. I really like what he has to say.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcuXs5Md3zY
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Actually, I was referring to Freddy van Maurik's comment that this was 'possibly the best M2 I have ever heard,' so you weren't denying me of anything. You're right about the opinions of individual orchestra members, but the opinion that Gatti just isn't a first rate conductor seems to be shared by many orchestra members, members of the choir, critics and quite a few people in the audience, as far as I can tell (of course, that doesn't necessarily make it true). Personally, I believe Chailly was the last great chief conductor of the RCO and I never liked the Mahler lite (let alone his Bruckner) of Jansons, who was always better in rehearsals. Having attended all of the Mahler 2's you've posted, I would certainly agree that Chailly is the best compromise.
By the way, I think you're being too kind when you refer to Gatti as an 'interpretive maverick,' there just doesn't seem to be an interpretation at all. Very loud, very slow, very soft and very fast becomes tiresome very quickly.. (his recent La Mer was a complete travesty, I've heard student orchestras play the Symfonie Fantastique better than the RCO under Gatti and his 'interpretation' of Berg's Three Orchestral Pieces showed a stunning lack of understanding of the music, again, it was just very, very loud and stupid). But, like you, I too am a believer that two people can hear the same exact thing and have opposite, subjective reactions to it.
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Well, after hearing a radio broadcast (just recently, on BBC Radio 3) of this concert, I most certainly wasn't so sure about this being the best M2 I ever heard. But I still think it was (one of) the best I heard live, simply because that's what I felt like after attending this concert. There was something in Gatti's conducting that made the members of the orchestra play from the edge of their seat, and it really worked - for me (and many others with me)!
Maybe this playing from the edge of their seat was due to the fact that Gatti is not a good enough conductor, maybe it was because he forced them out of their 'Jansons-comfort-zone', but I loved the result there and then. Upon hearing it again I still liked it, but I certainly see what you mean by 'very loud, very slow, very soft and very fast becomes tiresome very quickly'.
I don't think Gatti is as bad as you make him out to be. His music-making may just not be your cup of tea. I loved his Fontane di Roma from the inaugural concert, and I also like his Symphonie Fantastique (not the best, but I've heard it much worse). But hey, I don't consider the finale of M2 to be among his weakest compositions, either... ;)
So yes, I too respect your opinion. Apparently we're hearing or listening for different things (oh, I do agree that the Berg op.6 is quite badly done...).
Cheers!
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I guess that's just it, Gatti's music-making isn't exactly my cup of tea, but then again, unfortunately most of the RCO's regular conductors aren't (Fischer, Harding, Haitink, and, worst of all, that ridiculous clown Nelsons). On the upside: at least I don't need to renew my subscription (is there really anyone out there who seriously wants to see Haitink sleepwalk through yet another Mahler 9?). But I'm getting off topic here..
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hmmmm . . . leaving Haitink out of the conversation for a second, Fischer, Harding and Nelsons are all RELATIVELY young, and probably still have things to learn. I NEVER liked Simon Rattle in his younger years, but now he's become something of a 'wise, old sage'. I can listen to him now. Look at it this way: regardless of who's waving the stick, you're still hearing the Concertgebouw!!! How many people get THAT opportunity on a semi-regular basis?
And even if one might be slightly tired and jaded of less than perfect Mahler performances (because of the conductors), at least you're somewhere where you CAN hear Mahler - good Mahler at that - on a fairly regular basis. Chin up!
Barry
One last comment for BOTH of you guys. Regarding Berg's "Three Pieces" . . . how would you know? (meaning, how can you tell!). I've heard lots of recordings of it , all of them slightly different, but I've never heard one that struck me as poor. Seems to me that a performance that had exaggerated dynamics and tempi, would also be a performance that that music is specifically looking for! In other words, I can think of few more "expressionistic" works than Berg's 3 Pieces. I want to hear it for myself.
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Hi Barry,
Thanks for reminding me that hearing te RCO on a regular basis is a privilege! But.. they can be a frustrating bunch. Unlike the Berlin Philharmonic, an orchestra I was also priviliged to hear when I lived in Berlin for a few years (by the way, I agree with you on Rattle), the RCO can be undisciplined, sloppy and uninspired when they don't care for the conductor (which is quite often), and yet they seriously marketed themselves as 'the best orchestra in the world,' which is a stupid title anyway, for a few years. No reason to chin up though, as Haitink once said, the RCO's best instrument is their hall, and the playing is always of a reasonably high standard (unlike the programming unfortunately..) and sometimes more (their Elgar 2 under Gardiner for instance was outstanding).
As far as Berg is concerned, I'm not quite sure what you mean. If you study the score and have an understanding of the idiom of the Second Vienna School, it becomes clear that Gatti is completely clueless. He ignores most tempo indications, he highlights the obvious melodical lines and ignores all the structurally important ones, he doesn't know the difference between haupt- and nebenstimme, he seems oblivious to the fact that much of this music is a waltz and for all his impressive gestures on the podium, he can't keep the orchestra together at times. Of course, at the end an equally cleuless audience gives the man a standing ovation (as they always do in Amsterdam) because he conducted it without a score.
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"and yet they seriously marketed themselves as 'the best orchestra in the world,' which is a stupid title anyway, for a few years"
Yeah, I know. I can relate - I had to live through the same nonsense with the Chicago Symphony in the 1970's.
I'll check out the Berg. I'm sure you're right. It might just be me who can't tell the difference. I might have been one of those ones giving a standing ovation, simply because I like the piece and it so seldom gets programmed.
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There's nothing wrong with a standing ovation, but audiences in Amsterdam ALWAYS give a standing ovation. They think it's part of concert etiquette instead of a sign of appreciation, like in Germany or France (I don't know how it works in the US). Anyway, I always feel like giving Berg's opus 6 a standing ovation (the third piece, the march, has to be one of the great masterpieces of the 20th century), but not Gatti and his sloppy orchestra. Is it really still a rarity in the US, or SF at least?
By the way, at least on purely technical terms, wasn't the CSO under Solti the 'greatest orchestra of the world..?' ;) (I only have recordings to go by, never heard the CSO in a live performance and only saw Solti at the very end of his career in Amsterdam with a very disapointing Lied von der Erde, Sacre and Also Sprach Zarathustra). Solti's CSO recording of Wagner preludes and overtures is a thing to marvel at (to these Concertgebouw accustomed ears at least..)
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I heard Solti conduct the CSO in Washington, DC many years ago in Zarathustra while they were on tour. I do recall that the brass did sound quite loud, but that was before all the "bru ha ha" came out that Solti was the problem, both with the loud brass and diminished ability to decently lead a concert. I also have an old VHS tape in storage of the CSO conducted by Solti in Zarathustra, and when I played this tape of the opening for a now deceased friend who was a Horn player, he exclaimed "OUT OF TUNE!" while the timpani thumped out its notes.
It was only a few years later that musical circles started saying that the "Solti-ization" of the CSO was complete, and that people started getting turned off by the sound that the orchestra had taken on.
What would be nice for us all is to turn on our FM radios to our favorite classical station and happen to tune in at the right time, just after a familiar piece of music has started playing, without knowing who the conductor or the orchestra are, and let our ears and musical judgment take over to determine whether or not the performance is decent. Have we become so jaded about certain individual conductors and orchestras to let our preconceived notions affect our musicianship?
Wade
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This is turning out to be a very interesting conversation!
Wade makes a fair point. But: I've tried some 'blind' listening not too long ago, and my respons to various performances was almost without exception exactly the same as when I knew who performed it. For example: upon hearing Mahler by Maazel, I almost instantly want to turn it off.
And as for Haitink: given the recent M3-recording from Bayern, I'd say he still may present a solid M9, despite his age.
Freddy
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Yes, Haitink's Mahler is never less than solid, but I'll take Maazel's idiosyncrasies over boring old Haitink's solidity any time. But I understand that, as an admirer of Maazel's Mahler and Maazel in general, I'm expressing a minority opion.. (I won't even get started on Sinopoli :))
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The Haitink/BRSO M8 is superb.
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The Haitink/BRSO M8 is superb.
M8? I think you mean M3. Haitink has stated that he doesn't like to perform M8, though he recorded it once with RCAO.
Wade
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Twice. There's a video on Youtube of a later performance that's really quite good. I was surprised - it sounded as though he really liked the piece. Maybe it'll come out on a dvd someday.
I do like that Haitink/BRSO M3, although I think he could have boosted the tempo in a few spots (needs pep pills). I gave it a solid 4 stars at Amazon.