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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: djs on January 07, 2007, 01:59:50 AM
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Firstly, it's great to be reading the revitalised Mahler Board. It's a daily fix for me.
I have also enjoyed reading Barry Guerrero's fine Mahler reviews on Amazon.
Any chance of a review of Abbado's M3 with the BPO from London in 1999? I have mixed feelings about this one. The volume needs to be turned way up and I think Abbado plays down some of the music. However, for reasons I have difficulty explaining, I like the performance.
Comments appreciated.
Cheers,
Dallas
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Yes, I can give you a very quick review of it. It's really a very good performance. The problem, as you already mentioned, is that it's a rather low level recording that also has a fairly constricted dynamic range. There is a pirate of that particular performance, from London, floating aournd out there, that - for some reason - has a far fuller dynamic range. As far as "playing down" the music, I really believe that's more a function of the how the Berlin Phil. sounds with Mahler in general. To me, they're more like a big, overgrown German (dark sounding) chamber orchestra, than like a big, fat symphony orchestra such as Chicago, Philly, or St. Petersburg. That's not necessarily a bad thing; just different.
And by the way, thank you. I try.
Barry
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Your explanation of the sound of the Berlin Philharmonic makes sense. You expanded on that in your review of Abbado's Mahler 6 with the same orchestra which is very helpful.
I very much admire the playing Bernstein got out of the New York Philharmonic. Of course that was an orchestra that Mahler conducted. There does not seem to be much recorded Mahler from New York since Bernstein. I'd love to hear a good Mahler conductor record with them again in up to date sound.
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I like the Abbado/BPO/DG M3rd for whatever it is. Unlike other reviewers I don't hear such sonic problems in this recording and they in no way get in my way of enjoying this fabulous M3. In fact, I have the pirate live recording of the same concert that Barry mentioned. That one has slightly better sonics but the DG isn't bad at all in comparison. It is Abbado's keen sense of proportion and architecture that carry this performance. True, Abbado and his Berliners may lack the sheer power of Bernstein or even Horenstein, but they have their own unique voice in this music which is very delicious and irresistible.
John,
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"I'd love to hear a good Mahler conductor record with them (N.Y.) again in up to date sound".
. . . yeah, it's the expense of recording with American orchestras. Also, they won't record N.Y. in Carnegie Hall, which would help (always Avery Fischer). The Mehta/N.Y. recording of Mahler 5 is a good example of the lung power of the people he hired for the brass section: Phil Meyers (horn); Joe Allessi (trombone); Phil Smith (trumpet); Warren Deck (tuba) - these guys are great players. It's a pretty good, if slightly blustery performance of M5. The Masur/N.Y. M9 is pretty good as well, but less so his M1. Yes, it's a pity. But I doubt if many of the Maazel/N.Y. Mahler performances have been worth preserving on a silver disc. If they like a guest conductor, they'll give a great Mahler performance. Let's wait and see who N.Y. ends up with after Maazel.
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...and I think Abbado plays down some of the music. However, for reasons I have difficulty explaining, I like the performance.
I've always considered this one of my favorite M3's, but had not listened to it in a good while. As with just about all of Abbado's recent Mahler, Classics Today gave it a bad review, so I went over to re-read their criticism of the performance and see if there was any merit before I replayed it (well, I only re-listened to the first and last movements). Sure enough, many of their criticisms have merit. The trumpets have a tendency to be recessed, brass can have rather rounded sonorities, and the snare drum disappears in the "southern storm". Does this all make for a bad performance? -- not necessarily. Abbado chooses excellent tempos throughout. He really whips up a battle in the Southern Storm, despite the absence of the snare drums. Does Bernstein do a better job -- absloutely. However, I also listened to some other Southern Storms from Bertini, Gielen, Boulez, and Horenstein. They all do a better job with the "critical" snare drum, but Abbado arguably creates a more intense battle (although very few can even hold a candle to Lennie). CT brings up Lennie as a standard bearer for this symphony. For the most part I agree. His Sony M3 is my head-and-shoulders favorite. However, his DG finale is obscene at 28'+ and really wipes out my thorough love of the first five movments. Admittedly, the Berliner's do not make some of the ugly and vulgar sounds that I hear in Lennie, but I enjoy Abbado's well felt tempos throughout, Anna Larsson, and a particularly fine finale (despite the reticent trumpets).
BTW - I'm not sure if CT's mention of "bass drum rolls that rattle your living room" is meant as criticism, because I find this to be a major positive in most Mahler performances.
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Scot,
I agree with you on the Abbado/BPO M3. Actually, of the three recent Abbado/BPO Mahler recordings I think this one is the best in terms of conducting, playing and sound. I hate the sound quality of his live M7 and M9 CDs which has inconsistent sound stage and variable dynamic ranges.
John,
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For a performance that's conducted in a rather similar (fast) way to the Abbado, I like the Boulez/VPO one even better, especially in its SACD/CD hybrid incarnation. Von Otter isn't as idiomatic (deep voiced) as Larsson, but she makes for a refreshing change - much lighter than usual. I like the gratuitous upper brass line that Boulez adds towards the end of the "bim-bam" choral movement; and he has a far stronger trombone solo in the first movement. But the biggest difference, for me, comes at the climax of the long brass choral towards the end of the sixth movement - right where the last cymbal crash is located. While the trumpets and horns sound about the same as they do on Abbado/BPO, the VPO trombones belt out their two-part writing far better (two 'bones on each part). It's just fuller and stronger sounding. I'm sorry, but I just can't get past the rather constricted dynamic range of the DG issue of Abbado/BPO. Even Dave Hurwitz, who's been rather critical of some of Boulez's Mahler (and nearly all of Abbado's), like this Boulez M3.
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Barry,
The dynamic range of Abbado/BPO M2 CD may be constricted overall, but it is consistent, i.e., the highest volume is not constricted relative to the lowest volume setting and vice versa. On the other hand, in Abbado/BPO M9 recording, whenever a climax comes along its volume is attenuated. Try the first, second and third climaxes in the 1st movt. I hear such a limitation in the M3rd recording. In the case of Abbado/BPO M7th, the 'relative' dynamic range is OK but the engineers tweaked the sound stage too often from right to left, from left to right. It is really annoying. Again, I don't hear such defects in the M3rd CD.
John,
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"The dynamic range of Abbado/BPO M2 CD may be constricted overall..."
Sorry I meant M3. :D
John,
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"I hear such a limitation in the M3rd recording."
Oops, I meant "I don't hear such ..." ;D
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I really like the Abbado Berlin M3...the sound of this LP brings to mind a wet and slushy spring, with alot of rain...I think of T.S. Eliot saying "April is the cruelest month..."
The great highlight for me is the 4th movement...Anna Larrson's vocal has great control and atmosphere. All in all, there are nice turns of nuanced playing in each movement that really carries me along.
Barry, I think your description of the BPO sound on Abbado's M6 applies here in a big way...there is a " Brahmsian feel to the whole timbre (with the exception of chirping woodwinds in some places)...a lean, grayish kinda wet sound! Again, like a wet April.
My favorite modern 3rd is the Boulez. More and more this recording gets better with every listen. I find Boulez captures that innocent "wunderhorn" vibe without making anything too trite. Boulez actually evokes a "4 Symphony" child-like playfulness (cue Ms. Von Otter), yet there is danger in the forest with the potential to get eaten...the dark parts come with real shadows and mystery. Bravo to Boulez and the VPO. The instrumental color is amazing...a whole rainbow of color abounds. The only thing I don't like is the packaging design! yuuuch!!
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"Barry, I think your description of the BPO sound on Abbado's M6 applies here in a big way...there is a " Brahmsian feel to the whole timbre (with the exception of chirping woodwinds in some places)...a lean, grayish kinda wet sound! Again, like a wet April."
Yeah, but I really like my Franken-bado (Claudio-stein?) M6 very much. I kept complaining about its dark textures; every instrument sounding like a bassoon; blah-blah-blah; but I think that I instinctually knew that it would work much, much better in S/A order. Sure enough; it does.
Glad you like the Boulez M3. I think it's one of his best ones.
Barry
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I also agree with the comments about the Boulez M3, it is a wonderful recording. The VPO is on top form and Boulez really gets them to dig in in the first movement; moreso than they are usually prone to do I think. This recording has received some critical press, especially with regards to the sound, but I don't find the sound detracting at all. It sounds pretty good to me. I only have the CD version, not the SACD. I must say I was a bit disappointed with the recording after hearing Boulez' live performance of M3 with the Cleveland Orchestra - that was an amazing concert. The final movement sounded SO much better the way he did it in concert, especially the ending. I think Boulez kind of rushes the ending in the recording, it seemed perfect in concert. But overall, a great recording.
Ben
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Yeah, It's too bad that the entire Boulez cycle isn't being done with Cleveland, just for a refreshing change. No offense to the VPO, but they've had plenty of chances.
Barry
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I had this recording. Unfortunately I do not have it now. I deserve a stiff kick-in-the-crutch for having sold so many of my compact discs! The female solo is very Flagstadian. The climax of the 'Bimm-Bamm' of children's choir is all wrong in my view, but perhaps I wouldn't be so picky if I hadn't heard how Bernstein did it in his DG version. Overall it is a fine recording, as all of his Berlin/Live have been so far. Has anyone notice the torrent of great Italian Mahler conductor's, Abbado, Bertini, and Chailly. I'm sure there are many more! :)
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One slight correction. Bertini is an Italian name, I reckon, but he was actually Israeli. His conducting reminds me a little bit of Inbal - maybe a bit more tempered.
Barry
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Upon revisting the Abbado/BPO M3 recently...I have to say it has now become my top M3...it really is incredible in every way. The sonics don't bother me, and the performance has a special tonality I can't describe, and the tempos are judged just right for my taste...I have a tendency to prefer slow performances, but Abbado shows me another vision for the work, and I'm simply blown away.
Not only is the 1st movement here among the most exciting with raw power, but the inner movements to this performance are far different in concept than his earlier VPO account...here these movements flow and throw off breath taking nuances at every turn with a wonderful atmospheric quality, and now I have to admit this BPO surpasses the earlier VPO, which was a real favorite of mine of a long time.
--Todd
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I just culled this - not because it was bad but because I found I always chose another M3 over it. I did listen to the CzPO/Kobayashi SACD the other day, and I'd forgotten how good it really is, certainly my top M3.
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My $.02 worth on NYC recording venues: Occasionally the NY Phil has used the Manhattan Center, which I understand is a ballroom. Recorded sound is vastly superior to that obtained at Avery Fischer Hall. Yuri Temirkanov's R-K Scheherezade on RCA is among the best-sounding recordings I've ever heard, in support of a terrific performance. Also, Sinopoli conducting the Respighi Roman Trilogy and a disc including Scriabin's Third Symphony on DG are outstanding too.
As a Chicagoan, I feel the pain of New Yorkers who have to put up with the Fischer. We have to grit our teeth and endure Orchestra Hall.
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The Abbado BPO M3 STILL sounds amazing. I just had another listen this afternoon and had to be peeled off the floor afterwards!
--Todd