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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: Leo K on November 05, 2007, 09:35:57 PM
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I'm just curious what everyone's current best M9's are...
Here's mine:
Top choices:
Bernstein/RCO/DG
Bernstein/BSO/Memories
Ozawa/SKO/Sony (I also love the BSO/2002 live broadcast, but is somewhat marred by noisy audience member)
Wakasugi/TMSO/Fontec
Horenstein/LSO/Music and Arts
Bertini/TMSO/Fontec
Haitink/ECYO/Phillips
Honorable list:
Newmann/CPO/Exton
Kobayashi/NJP/Exton
Barenboim/BSK/Warner (slightly trumped by the live broadcast from April 07)
Gullini/CSO/DG
M9's I'm still considering:
Chailly/RCO/Decca
de Waart/SFSO/Live broadcast from the 80's (can't remember exact year here at work)
--Leo
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I'm just curious what everyone's current best M9's are...
Here's mine:
Top choices:
Bernstein/RCO/DG
Bernstein/BSO/Memories
Ozawa/SKO/Sony (I also love the BSO/2002 live broadcast, but is somewhat marred by noisy audience member)
Wakasugi/TMSO/Fontec
Horenstein/LSO/Music and Arts
Bertini/TMSO/Fontec
Haitink/ECYO/Phillips
Honorable list:
Newmann/CPO/Exton
Kobayashi/NJP/Exton
Barenboim/BSK/Warner (slightly trumped by the live broadcast from April 07)
Gullini/CSO/DG
M9's I'm still considering:
Chailly/RCO/Decca
de Waart/SFSO/Live broadcast from the 80's (can't remember exact year here at work)
--Leo
Leo,
Your list pretty much coincides with mine, but I might add:
Ozawa/BSO/Philips (live)
Inoue/NJP/Exton (live, no other version matches with the fire and unbuttoned energy in this recording)
Abbado/BPO 1995 Mahlerfest (live)
Svetlanov/het Residentie (live)
John,
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BTW, I am not all that crazy about the Guilini/CSO recording. To my ears the playing of CSO was all wrong for this piece; unnecessarily loud brass, thin strings, some odd balances, close-up sound with little ambiance and warmth, and above all the extremely slow tempo that Guilini set in, all add to an unsatisfactory M9th. I am still partial to Lenny's way with this great music and his RCO version is the crown to treasure here.
John,
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All Bernstein's official stuff including the DVD,
Giulini CSO
Tabakov / Sofia PO (the outer movements here are amazing!)
Tennstedt LPO (an average sonics, otherwise excellent)
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Don't care - hate 'em all - lousy piece. ;)
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For anyone interested, here is a similar thread from back in May:
http://gustavmahlerboard.com/forum/index.php?topic=203.msg1554#msg1554 (http://gustavmahlerboard.com/forum/index.php?topic=203.msg1554#msg1554)
Here was my list from that thread updated to include the MTT, which I inadvertently forgot:
Abbado/BPO/95' Mahlerfest
Ancerl/CPO/Supraphon
Bernstein/BSO/Memories (live, Tanglewood)
Bernstein/RCO/DGG
Chailly/RCO/Decca
Dohnanyi/Cleveland
Eschenbach/NDRSO (I "think" this was an NDR subscriber release, I only have a CD-R)
Inbal/Frankfurt
Inoue/NJP/Exton
Karajan/BPO (Live)
Lopez-Cobos/Cinncy (IIRC, but its been a long time)
Levine/Philly
Maazel/BRSO/BRSO (DVD)
Ozawa/SKO
Segerstam/Danish NRSO
MTT/SFSO
de Waart/Netherlands PO
I believe that I have more first tier favorites of M9 and DLvdE than any of the other symphonies, but I have yet to find the perfect M9.
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I believe that I have more first tier favorites of M9 and DLvdE than any of the other symphonies, but I have yet to find the perfect M9.
That's right. Contrary to what most people might think, a perfect M9th - in interpretation, playing, and sound - has not yet come along, IMO. I think Bernstein/RCO/DG got pretty close but its sound is not that good. Inoue in Berlin or Vienna might have made a great M9th, but he's never been given the opportunity. Ozawa, when he gets in the right mood, might conduct a great M9 but we must be content with what he has already left behind. If only Rattle can shake my belief with his upcoming new release...
John,
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All right, all right. I think the best overall M9 is Karajan/BPO for the first two movements, and Bernstein/Cocertgebouw for the last two movements. However, the sound of the two orchestras don't match all that well. Here's more:
single disc: Barenboim
sound quality: Chailly
performance: Bernstein/BSO (Tanglewood)
best first movement climax: Giulini/CSO (Karajan is quite good at this jucture too)
best Rondo Burlesque: Bernstein/RCO
most intelligent layout: Abbado/VPO (DG), which puts his M10/I BEFORE the first movement of the 9th. That makes for an interesting comparison of first movements. I don't think that the performance is all THAT great, however.
Barry
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Here's more:
single disc: Barenboim
I'll take the Maazel/BRSO. It fits on a single DVD disc. ;)
Heck ,I cannot remember which of the ones on my list are single disc versions. I have over-burned most of these onto single discs for use in my car player. IIRC, the only legitimate single disc version from my list is the Ancerl.
BTW, I agree with the choice of Chailly for best sound. MTT is right up there.
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I love the Maazel/BRSO DVD for the playing and sound of the orchestra!
There was once a Previn/NDR pirate recording which had the woodwinds so prominent that it gave a whole new life to the score....I also heard a live Dohnanyi/CVLO that was fast, exciting and had gorgeous playing. In terms of the quality of playing, this one along with the Philips Ozawa take the crown. By comparison, the Ozawa/SKO/Sony, for all of its strengths, sounds underrehearsed, lacks the previson and lung power (except for the tuba!) of the other two orchestras. When I heard it live in SF they played better than they did in this recording.
John,
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Wow, I would love to hear that Previn M9 someday.
I'm looking forward to receiving the Ozawa/BSO/Phillips M9 I just ordered, I hear so many great comments about the playing. Because Ozawa's SKO M9 sounds underrehearsed, it sounds rather raw, but it sure is exciting to listen to! Another memorable underrehearsed M9 is the Horenstein/ONF/Disques Montainge M9, which has it's moments too, though it can't really compare with his LSO recordings...still on some days I really like it.
I was thinking that Kobayashi's conception for the M9 would be better played by the BSO or VPO, and CPO...same with Inoue (though his recordng is indeed well played through and through).
As for Karajan, I still really like his M9 and should have included it on my list. I have a live broadcast of a Karajan M9 that I haven't listened to yet, but I hear it is much better than his officially released recordings?
I wonder if that Maazel DVD is hard to find, sounds like a good M9 as well.
--Leo
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One that hasn't been mentioned yet is Pesek with the CPO, on Virgin Classics, I think. That one is right up there with my favorites. Overall, the one I find myself reaching for most is Chailly.
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What I really like about the Pesek, is one particular passage in the Rondo Burlesque: the way he delays and "halts time", just before you come back to the allegro (fast) section. In other words, the tail end of the slow passage in the Rondo Burlesque. I haven't heard anybody else do that nearly so much.
By the way, one thing that I truly dislike about the Rattle M9, is his big slow-down at the very end of the Rondo Burlesque. That just sounds wrong to me.
Barry
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By the way, one thing that I truly dislike about the Rattle M9, is his big slow-down at the very end of the Rondo Burlesque. That just sounds wrong to me.
Barry
Agreed. What on earth was he thinking? Just as the music is really spinning out of control, he does a big ritard. Ugh! ???
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...the Ozawa/SKO/Sony, for all of its strengths, ...lacks the ... lung power ...
John,
Yes, this is the one minor turn-off for me. I really love Ozawa's way with M9, in terms of tempo choices. His R-B has one of the crazier finishes this side of Lennie/RCOA. Its actually the rawness of the SKO playing that I prefer over the Abbado/BPO/Mahlerfest one, which is a little smoother sounding than I might prefer. I'll need to listen to Ozawa's Boston (studio) one again. IIRC, the R-B does not have the intensity of the SKO one.
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"Agreed. What on earth was he thinking? Just as the music is really spinning out of control, he does a big ritard. Ugh! "
Maybe he wanted to tell the audience that everything is under control, so everything is OK? ;D
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This afternoon I revisted the live de Waart/SFSO/M9 broadcast from 1984.
Timings:
27:28
15:54
12:45
24:45
The recording sounds really good for a broadcast...but there is a limited dynamic range.
This is one of those performances that grow is stature over many listens. At first this sounds like a very "removed" interpetation, but actually it is quite envolved, and this is especially realized once we arrive at de Waart's treatment of the finale. This is a very special reading, special in a sense of de Waart's courage to stay clear from unnesessary exaggeration. Actually, this unexaggerated quality is his view of the whole work, but I wasn't clear on this until I heard the Adagio. The details of the score, carefully executed and played, provide all the "action" and feeling of forward momentium that is needed...no energy is wasted. De Waart's focus keeps this M9 quite electric. The horn lines, for example, are well heard in the climaxes in the 1st movement. And in the 1st movement the dynamics of the timpani are carefully thought out.
There is "focused" force at play during the climaxes of each movement, a control that encourages the tension and provides good contrast with the quieter moments without getting overly "wild" as I already mentioned. The "quieter" moments are quite zen-like and objective, but highly charged as the focus on tempo and color remain constant...a tension more subtle than the "big" climaxes but still there, as heard on repeated listenings. A kind of fulfilling balance is achieved with the details in the score and the relation of tempos between movements. This is a very well thought out and carefully considered performance.
His straightforward way with the score brings a kind of "innocence" that reminds me of the M4, and reminds me that Mahler once mentioned the M4 while describing the M9 to Bruno Walter. This performance is kind of like a sequel to M4. Perhaps it is the radiant quality of the playing that makes me feel this, or the tempo choices...I'm not sure, but perception is a mysterious quality. Another may hear something totally different.
I like how de Waart's Adagio sounds fragile, gentle, and spiritually complete. It really makes sense it light of what had happened previously in the performance. It also really ties up the performance and there is a feeling of rightness, or completeness.
A very fine M9 and now I see why John highly values this broadcast.
--Leo
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Leo,
I am glad you revisited this performance and now give it a very high rating. To me, it was the playing of SFSO that got me hooked immediately. Such a perfect balance, such idiomatic playing from an orchestra not well known for Mahler! The whole performance sounds as if they had been playing Mahler for decades. Plus, de Waart's reading reminded me of Ozawa which I admired so much, albeit de Waart has a slightly better sense of architecture and flow. As you said, nothing is wasted here but nothing is wanting either. And yet, there is this feeling of "fullness" over the entire course of the music making. It's that good.
John,
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Yes, there is nothing wanting either, it's a deep intepretation and I should mention that there are moments when de Waart really surprises, as in the second movement, where near the end a rare "exaggeration", or a sarcastic nastiness appears that wasn't hinted at earlier.
The first movement climaxes are devasting in their directness, and the bells after the final climax are really prominant and resonant, as if there had been a change of heart for the better (I associate that motif with a beating heart), or a light appears after darkness. There are many instances of enjoyable detail like this.
--Leo
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I love the Bernstein 9ths, along with the Chailly and the Klemperer. However, this CD, which is new to me, is climbing the ladder quickly.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61PDRTHQF7L._SS500_.jpg)
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Tjhat's synchronicity for you. I've been playing the Ancerl this evening. (The original Supraphon boxed set of LPs.) Easy to see why it's rated highly.
In the BBc radio 3 Building a Library a few months ago (that I reported at the time here), where many currently available M9s were compared, Ancerl's was in the top few at the last.
he's sharp, distinctive, fresh, as Czech performers so often are. It's an achievement.
I've been playing mixed cycles lately. Next will be work-by-work blizzards.
Ivor
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I would like to take a chance of asking you about a recording I saw. Yesterday I saw a live M9 by Barshai and an orchestra from Moscow, and the label is BIS. I scanned through the first movement and sounds great to me, and so I am preeparing to pick this up. What's your opinion about this recording?
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Barshai M9th? Yes, I have it too. A mediocre to good performance at best. That's all I can say.
John,