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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: BJordan on January 17, 2007, 02:54:39 AM
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Any opinions on this set of Mahler recordings?
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I have M3, M5, M6, M9, M10, and like them all except for M9. This M10 can stand along with best versions. The M3 isn't far from the top drawer either. The M5 has clean, well articulated playing & sound that may appeal to many, but I am still flipping my coin about the M6.
John,
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I happen to think that the sixth is easily the strongest Mahler item from Gielen. I think the sixth best plays into what it is that Gielen does well. Meine zwei groschen, for whatever it's worth.
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I just ordered the Gielen 6th off Amazon...the other weekend I was listening to the sound examples and was really REALLY impressed. Also, the Berg Op.6 is included as well as the andante from Schubert's unfinished 10th. I couldn't resist ordering it.
I just aquired his M3 and M9, but haven't heard yet.
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I am a big fan of Gielen's Mahler. It is a shame that his boxed set does not include his superb version of M10 (and he has yet to record DLvdE :( ). His M1, M3, M6, and M7 are all very strongly in my first tier of favorites for those symphonies. His M5 and M8 are good, but they are not quite first tier favorites of mine. I am not real fond of his M2, M4, or M9, although they are all positively reviewed by DH. His M2 is quite well played, but I find the finale to be completely underwhelming.
Gielen is very good at the expressionistic side of Mahler. He can get the SWR to make some very raucous and vulgar sounds. In addition he conducts with fairly flexible tempos and does well with the dynamic contrasts. Overall, he is my kind of conductor.
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"Overall, he is my kind of conductor"
yeah, I guess so. Obviously, he's very good on the technical side of leading an orchestra, and making music. I just find him a tiny tad insincere on the more "happy", positive aspects of Mahler. I think he's a bit better on the dark side of the force. I also find the finale of his commercial recording of M7 a bit too poopy (slow). There's a pirate from a live performance of M7, in which he's a full minute faster with the finale. I really think Haenssler should have remade the 4th and 7th symphonies (use the live pirate!), and his 5th and 9th symphonies sound a bit like "afterthoughts" to me.
So far, from Haenssler, I think that Norrington is far more interesting in M1, M4, & M5. Hurwitz would kill me!
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Geilen's account of the 9th is amazing. I actually think about everyday...I can't get it out of my mind!
Although I generally prefer a real slow Adagio...Gielen's shaping at a somewhat faster pace here is convincing. All movements are great and awash with angular color. It's almost apathetic...perhaps very angry..willfull. Barry, I like your description of this account as an "afterthought"...that describes this performance pretty well I think.
I've not finished listening to his account of the 6th yet, but so far it's pretty much ideal for me. Dark, atmospheric, kinda slow and gritty.
I plan to collect the whole cycle now.
It's funny...I'm gravitating towards the darker, somewhat cranky interpetations lately.
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I've only listened to Gielen's M9 once. I did not like the way he balanced the symphony. He draws out the first three movements and then, to my ears, gives short-shrift to the finale. Of course, I like having the first movement drawn out, and Gielen conducts it nicely, but I cannot say that I like his slow tempos for the middle movements, particularly when followed by such a brisk finale. I also find that his R-B lacks "fire".
As I stated in my previous post, though, I really like much of his cycle. In one sense, it is a shame that anyone buys the individual releases when the cycle is available for a moderate-budget price. Of course, the individual releases also have some very interesting filler that is NOT available in the box set.
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I thought about getting the box, but the filler on the singles is very attractive (Webern/Ives and etc). It's going to take time to buy all the singles though...so it is a tough decision.
What do you think of Geilen's M3?
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Gielen's third is one of his stronger ones, I feel. It's pretty good. I prefer some of the even more recent M3s that have been released: Chailly (SACD); Boulez/VPO (SACD), and Rattle among them. But here's what's completely wacko: as a filler, they alternate movements between Webern's "Six Pieces For Orchestra", and Schubert's "Rosamunde" orchestral music. I suppose that one could reburn them, so that they would have decent performances of both works. Anyway, that's a real typical Darmstadt, Donaueschingen, Baden-Baden idea of mixing the old and the new, I suppose. I think it's ridiculous. As much as I like Webern's "Six Pieces", it's not I want to hear after the Mahler 3rd. It's far more appropriate with M6 or M9, I feel.
Gielen's decent M8 (not fabulous, but good) comes with Schoenberg's "Jacob's Ladder" (Jacobsleiter), which is one of Schoenberg's ultra-ugly biblical works. Frankly, it's about the last piece of music I'd ever want to hear before, or after, the Mahler 8th.
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I wouldn't be surprised if I end up eventually shifting the way I believe Mahler should be preformed. For now I stress color, richness, and beauty. Sometimes though it helps to see him as a pioneer to German Expressionism, in which case I might champion Gielen. I'm curious of what anyone thinks of Gielen's 1st and 10th, as these are available from BMG. Leo K's mentioning of M6 coupled with Schubert adagio from his 10th is sounding tempting. I never even knew Schubert completed a movement from the late work. I just acquired Hans Zender's Complete Schubert Symphonies on Hanssler. I've always thought Schubert Romantism, orchestrally speaking at least, erupted in his unfinished 8th; I'm know learning he was quite the romantic with the first and final movements of his 4th, which is very stirring. Schubert has an awesome since of forward progression, better then Beethoven in my view.
I know Norrington's M1 includes the Blumine movement that Mahler himself dismissed. From the samples I've heard it is a fair performance. I might also get this recording if I hear good things of it.
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Norrington's M1: the inner movements are excellent, as is Norrigton's handling of the long and sometimes dull introduction to the first movement. The finale, however, kind of defeats R.N. and his Stuttgart players to some degree. Here, R.N. can't micro-manage every detail, and everybody sounds a little uncomfortable with the idiom. That being the case, I kind of expected his Mahler 5th to be that way. Instead, everybody sounded perfectly at-home with Mahler's idiom; as though they'd all being playing the piece for years (maybe they have!). Anyway, getting back to the first symphony, the main body of the first movement is well done, but also just a tad breathless in spots; particularly after the horns do their three ascending, loud scoops or barks - for a lack of a better description. In other words, the last few minutes of the first movement.
It's an interesting performance, but I would recommend it more as a supplement, and not as somebody's one and only recording of M1. Hope this helps.
Barry
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"I'm curious of what anyone thinks of Gielen's 1st and 10th"
Well, you certainly won't go wrong with either. I feel that Norrington is more interesting with his M1. I get tired of hearing the same Mahler first - over and over - with the scherzo being too fast, and the funeral procession that begins the slow movement, being too slow. Like Jarivi, Norrington addresses that issue by slowing down the scherzo - just a tad - and speeding up the funeral procession. Gielen has the stronger finale.
For M10/Cooke, I prefer the Ormandy. Gielen is excellent with the more "Vienna 2nd school" elements; so, his fourth movement (second scherzo) is outstanding, as is the development section of the fifth movement. But I feel that Ormandy is far better with the first scherzo; "Purgatorio" (third movement); and, the back half of the fifth movement, where the Philadelphia string section does its special mojo, and Ormandy is simply faster. For me, the Ormandy simply flows better from start to finish. In addition, Gielen's solo bass drum strokes that begin the fifth movement - as with so many of them - are simply too loud in relation to all the soft, dark music that goes on around those strokes. To me, Ormandy and Chailly get the volume and timbre of those strokes just right. I prefer Ormandy, but you won't go wrong with the Gielen; unless, like me, you feel that the back half of the fifth movement should have some blood in its veins; much less prove that it can get some kind of musical hard-on ((partly a problem with Cooke's thread-bare orchestration and undercooked (no pun intended) dynamic markings)).
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Hello
I know this is an old topic, but a month ago it was rumoured on my domestic forum, that Flac.com in France sold this box for just 22 Euros, and so it was. I recieved my sample 2 weeks ago. For those of us on a budget, this pricing makes it irrelevant to discuss whether his interpretations, or the sound recordings are top notch. (It is now priced at 124€)
None of the fillers from the single discs are in the box, and the M10 comes only as the adagio. I have not heard the complete Gielen/M10, but IMO no one of the many M10`s in my collection comes even close to the Barshai on Brilliant. I also finds his performing version more full and coherent than the Cooke.
Steen
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Another good deal on Gielen's Mahler is via eMusic.com. They have high bit-rate VBR MP3's of the whole cycle. Their pricing is between $15-20/month (I don't remember exactly) for 50 downloads. Each movement of a symphony is one download (except for M8), so you can do the math.
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This M6 1st movement seems to piss off a lot of people due to the tempo, but I think it's menacng and gruesome - yum! ;D
I'd much rather live with this movement than say Bernstein's Mario Andretti/Dale Earnhardt approach.
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Yesterday, I downloaded the Gielen set from Amazon for $17.98 (http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphonies-Nos-1-9/dp/B002VRHWLU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1276177333&sr=8-2). I have long wanted to hear this set after listening to samples. I don't know if the $17.98 is an error or not, but i was able to download all the symphonies plus the M10 adagio last night.
There is one definite error in the download. The first movement of M2 is missing half of it. Only the final 10 minutes or so are there. I took a look at iTunes' offering of this download, and their M2 1st movement is identical. I have not had the time to see if there are any other missing parts of movements. So far, I have only had time to list to M9 and the M10 adagio, both of which I enjoyed. I guess after I listen to what is left of M2, I will have to decide whether or not to buy the CD separately to get the rest of the first movement and have a complete set.
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There is one definite error in the download. The first movement of M2 is missing half of it. Only the final 10 minutes or so are there. I took a look at iTunes' offering of this download, and their M2 1st movement is identical. I have not had the time to see if there are any other missing parts of movements.
I'd highly recommending sending a complaint! I downloaded Honeck's M1 which had some skips in the finale. I explained the problem and because it was a flaw in the file itself they gave me a refund.
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>Wunderhorn: "I'm curious of what anyone thinks of Gielen's 1st and 10th"
Gielen's M1 is my desert island choice at this time. It pretty much sounds perfect (if that exists) in just about every aspect of how I envision this symphony. The crescendos are blaring and he is equally as tender and sensitive when called for. The recording is really, really good also. You can crank this one until the cows come home and then some. It's a no-brainer AFAIC.
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I have not heard all of Gielen's Mahler recordings. But of the ones I've heard - M3, M5-M7, M9, and M10 I like the M3rd, M6th, and especially, the M7th very much.
John,
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I haven't heard any of his recordings myself. How do they compare to other conductors? Are they worthwhile?
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>Wunderhorn: "I'm curious of what anyone thinks of Gielen's 1st and 10th"
Gielen's M1 is my desert island choice at this time. It pretty much sounds perfect (if that exists) in just about every aspect of how I envision this symphony. The crescendos are blaring and he is equally as tender and sensitive when called for. The recording is really, really good also. You can crank this one until the cows come home and then some. It's a no-brainer AFAIC.
Agreed. Easily among the best M1's.
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>I haven't heard any of his recordings myself. How do they compare to other conductors? Are they worthwhile?
I guess that depends on what you are looking for in this music. It seems like us Mahler "nutjobs" ;D can't get enough of hearing alternative views of what he was trying to say, so in that regard, I would say yes, it is always worth hearing another angle on this music. Now having said that, this set is quite pricey $$$$, so try and shop it at a discount if possible. I got mine from an Amazon vendor used for about $70 or so, which is a great price for this set.
As for the actual music, Gielen is not overly sentimental, but I do hear a lot of passion. He is amazing at points and great-to-good at others. If you dig the modernist aspects of the scores, you will probably find a lot to like here. If you go for the bombast, look elsewhere. It's not a perfect cycle (what is?) but there are moments and entire movements that are exemplary. The finale of M2 is a tad underwhelming for instance, but his M6 finale is as good as it gets to my ears. There is a TON of music here, so don't expect miracles at every corner, but overall it is a great sounding (albeit to varying degrees) set that is very consistent. And no worries on the SWF Sinfonieorchester Baden-Baden and Freiburg (say that 20 times fast...) - they can play their asses off and then some.
I personally wouldn't want to live without it.