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General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: barry guerrero on January 10, 2008, 10:05:33 AM
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I'm fudging a tad by giving this five stars - it's really more a 4.5 for me. But hey, I'm thankful that any major label is still recording the Mahler 8th at this point! For DG, this is a huge improvement over their Abbado M8 recording, but not fully superior to their Sinopoli one. Sinopoli has the stronger female cast, but Boulez has the stronger men; especially the tenor (Johan Botha for Boulez; Keith Lewis for Sinopoli). For anyone who is familiar with Boulez's middle '70s Mahler 8th from the Royal Albert Hall with the BBC Symphony Orch. (it's been floating around on various Italian pirates for years), not much will come as a big surprise here. On the whole, Boulez opts for slower tempi throughout most of Part II. In Part I, Boulez is pretty much up to normal speed, but he takes the ending to Part I at a tempo that's so stately that it's almost beyond belief. I like it very much, but it has the odd effect of making the end of Part 1 seem more grand and important that the ending to Part II (which should be the grand summary of the entire symphony, if not all of western music up to that point!). This is especially true in light of the fact that the series of simultaneous cymbal and tam-tam smashes near the end of the symphony, barely register through the dense sounding Eb Major chord (offstage brass are perfectly audible, however). Still, there's much attention to small detail, as well balances throughout Part II - so much so that the entire symphony comes off as being thoroughly musical, and not just a sequence of pretty filler material that's mostly there to bide one's time between important climaxes.
While Part II was a bit slow to take flight under Boulez (he's like Kent Nagano in that regard), I found the entire passage from the tenor's first big solo - "Hochste Herrscherin der Welt" - up to Una Poentitetium's (Gretchen - same gal) magical appearance some eight minutes later, to be practically spellbinding. That said, the almost Wagnerian sounding orchestal passages near the start of Part II have far more intensity here than they do under Nagano. That in itself is a testament to the fine and idiomatic playing of the Staatskapelle Berlin. After that excellent middle section, I found the passage work for the three penitant women to be a tad droopy under Boulez, if also well detailed. And speaking of details, one that I really appreciate is that Boulez used a true harmonium (chamber organ) wherever Mahler called for one, thus making a strong contrast to the big concert organ. Anyway, following those penitant women, things hit their stride again with an outstanding "blicket auf" passage, with Botha sounding even better here than he did previously. The slower than normal tempo for the symphony's ending might not be to everyone's taste either, but I prefer it to being too fast (Solti, Bernstein, and Tennstedt - I hate to say!)
I also very much like the very start of the symphony here. The tempo is just right - not too fast; not too slow. The amount of organ is also just right - not too little, but not too much either. A previous reviewer complained of excessive bass eminating from the organ. On my system, it didn't overbalance everything else. Since this is the first Mahler recording to have been made in the excellent acoustics of Berlin's Jesus Christus Kirche since the much celebrated Karajan Mahler 5th came out in the early 1970s, I suspect that an electronic organ was being employed - at least for the lower end of the organ's spectrum. Perhaps it's just a matter of taste, but I didn't find it excessive. In fact, I'm very pleasantly surprised by just how good DG's sound is here - for once.
So, with this fine finale to Boulez's decade long Mahler cycle (over a decade, really), can we finally bury the much celebrated Solti Mahler 8th once and for all? Well, not really, as they're nearly polar opposites. Even if I find it more technically polished than moving, the Solti still has an excellent cast throughout (Kubelik has an even stronger cast). But Boulez certainly has the more interesting details, and he takes his time to smell those roses along the way as well.
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Thanks for the review Barry, having never heard the 70's live pirate, I was a bit surprised by Boulez' slower tempo's, I was expecting the performance on one disc, with the same kind of treatment as his M2 which I like overall or similar to Rattle's very good M8, but this new M8 is a real pleasure to listen too, I think your review pretty much sums up how I feel about it also, and agreed that Boulez really brings out the Wagner in Part II.
Vatz
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Nice review, Barry. About the organ, I remember seeing reference to a "digital organ" in the booklet (look at the recording credits). I agree that the sound quality is quite fine, especially for DG.
Russell
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Thanks, Barry.
But I am still somewhat bothered by the weak organ in the coda to Part II. although it is quite audible in Part I.
John,
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Great review Barry...I think I'll listen to this wonder M8 again!
--Todd
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Thanks, Barry.
But I am still somewhat bothered by the weak organ in the coda to Part II. although it is quite audible in Part I.
John,
I was wrong about the organ. I've been listening to Boulez M8th lately and am very satisfied with the organ sound. It's there from the beginning to the end whenever it's called by the score, but you need to boost the bass as the organ sometimes comes out on a very low octave.
It is an excellent M8th, one of the best Boulez has done in his Mahler cycle.
I particularly like the ending of Part I. where Boulez slows down the speed in order let all the polyphonic lines to come out clearly without the normal congestion heard in other recordings. This is a Boulez stamp that he put whenever he conducted M8th in the past.
John
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Thanks, Barry.
But I am still somewhat bothered by the weak organ in the coda to Part II. although it is quite audible in Part I.
John,
I was wrong about the organ. I've been listening to Boulez M8th lately and am very satisfied with the organ sound. It's there from the beginning to the end whenever it's called by the score, but you need to boost the bass as the organ sometimes comes out on a very low octave.
It is an excellent M8th, one of the best Boulez has done in his Mahler cycle.
I particularly like the ending of Part I. where Boulez slows down the speed in order let all the polyphonic lines to come out clearly without the normal congestion heard in other recordings. This is a Boulez stamp that he put whenever he conducted M8th in the past.
John
John,
Thanks for reminding me that I want to revist this M8 again!
-Todd
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It's a very musical Mahler 8th, and Johan Botha is truly one of the better tenors to have tackled that difficult part. I do think that the ending to Part II is a bit anti-climactic in comparison to the end of Part I (which is stunning, as indicated). It needs more tam-tam, and it needs a bit more organ. Still, this is a Mahler 8th I can just enjoy listening to. That said, I like the Zinman even better (which has an almost lousy tenor).
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Zinman's, to me, is the best of his cycle. I have the Sinopoli, the Boulez, Bernstein (Sony), Gergiev, Nagano, Gielen, Horenstein with the BBC, probably one or two others hiding someplace. Zinman has risen to the top for me, but I'm heading home from work and will immediately put the Boulez on, based on these posts.
Bill
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I don't want to get your hopes up too high, but it's well worth hearing. I like the new remastering of the Rattle 8th also - great organ!
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I'm afraid that I must continue my previous thought that this Mahler 8 is far from my fave---- It's certainly fine in many ways. I want to add that Boulez' M5 is my favorite 5, but, so far, the Zinman M8 is reigning supreme here.... Wonderful recording, excellent organ. I will admit that M8 is apparently the hardest for me to like for whatever reason. I certainly have enough of them. There's a certain harshness to the recording on Boulez that was not sitting well for M8.
Desert Island cycles (forgetting indivudual favorites): Gielen, Boulez,Zinman, Bernstein (CBS-Sony).
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yes, I very much like the Zinman M8. I'm a real Mahler 8 junkie, so it's difficult for me to narrow down to just one choice. The Gerard Schwarz/Seattle S.O. M8 is a real sleeper too. Scott, our moderator, really likes the Inbal one from Japan (Exton). Thanks for sharing.
Barry
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As fine as the Zinman may be, I'd put the Boulez ahead of it. The playing is better, and Boulez's tight control of the huge Part II. and the fantastic retardando near the end of Part I. are hard to beat. The organ and recording sound are pretty darn good too.
John,
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This is a question for Barry:
On disc 2, track 16 @ 3:55 how come I don't hear timpani?
In all other recordings I own there is the timpani rolling at that spot and it's clearly audible, so I am curious what edition Boulez used.
John,
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I'll check it out when I have time. It's probably just a counting mistake (missed entrance).
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On disc 2, track 16 @ 3:55 how come I don't hear timpani?
John,
I have the Universal Edition score of Mahler 8, which is surely the edition Boulez used. At that spot in the last movement (figure 214), a sfp timpani roll starts on B-flat and continues for four measures. The accent is observed to different degrees by different conductors, but I agree that it's not heard at all on the Boulez recording. As Barry said, someone probably just missed the entrance. On the other hand, I have at least one other recording on which it seems to be missing as well, so perhaps there's more to it.
EDIT: I just checked a few recordings, trying to find the one I had remembered. It's the Bernstein LSO recording. On that one, though the accent is completely missing, the roll does begin very delicately on time. All the other recordings I checked have fairly dramatic accents at that spot including, interestingly enough, Boulez's 1975 BBC Symphony recording. On Boulez's new recording, the accent as well as the entire roll seem to be missing, which does suggest a missed entrance. I'll be interested to read what Barry has to say.
James
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Thanks, James.
I can't hear it all so the percussionist must have missed the entrance.
It may be a small effect locally, but I think it diminishes the power of the ending somewhat :-[.
John,
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It may be a small effect locally, but I think it diminishes the power of the ending somewhat :-[.
I certainly agree. Back in the 70s when I had only two M8s (imagine that)—Solti and Bernstein—I wondered why Solti's had the timpani accent and Bernstein's didn't, and I always missed it when I listened to the Bernstein.
James
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Speaking of Mahler 8, here's a review of Gergiev's performance in Washington, DC night before last. Apparently he used only about 300 performers (!) which must be some kind of record.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/20/AR2010102006027.html
James
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Since I have a mind so fine that no idea can penetrate it, the 8th has always been the Mahler symphony that I have had the least connection to.
But the Boulez recording has made the most sense of the symphony to me of any that I have heard. And I do have to state that I love the clarity of the sound, both from the musicians and the recording.
I had a similar reaction to his Bruckner 8, though I get that symphony much more than I ever have Mahler's 8th.
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Funny, but I'm the other way around. I know it's just me, but I don't care much for either the scherzo or finale in Bruckner's 8th. I also think the slow movement is a tad too long for its material. More and more, I've been thinking that the 8th might be Mahler's most perfect work. But, of course, that's entirely debatable. For me, the best Bruckner symphony through the first three movements is the 6th, but the finale is a dog (relatively speaking). Overall, my favorite complete, four movement Bruckner symphony is the 7th.
When it comes to 9th symphonies, I'm the other way around: I greatly prefer Bruckner 9 to Mahler 9, but only in its normal three movement form (I'm not sold on the conjectural finale business). I see absolutely no need for a finale to Bruckner's 9th.
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I don't know the Boulez 8th. But I must note that after more than 40 years of concert going, I heard the young Nezet-Seguin last June conduct my first live Mahler 8th in Montreal with a double orchestra (both the Montreal Metropolitan and the Ottawa orchestras at about 150 players) plus multiple choruses in the vicinity of 350 voices (including two children's choirs) plus the eight soloists. The experience was overwhelming. Much as I admire the 8th on recording, the symphony seems to me a uniquely communal work. At least for now, I still can't get the ocean of sound of the live performance out of my head and my pulse. So I will need to wait longer before approaching the work on record again.
Enjoy all your favorite recorded version(s), but try, if you haven't already, to hear it live.
Best to all,
Tom in Vermont
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Yeah, a live performance of the 8th can be really breathtaking. I heard it for the first time in 1985 in an indoor sports arena (the local concert hall was too small) also with two combined orchestras and seven choirs (totally 850). When the first chord with the "Veni creator" from the choirs, orchestras, organ, and solists sounded, I got goose bumps all over my body. It was a totally magnificent experience, like nothing I had ever experienced before at a concert.
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Even better yet is to be part of a M8 performance! The one time I performed it (two performances), I sang in Chorus I.
Wade
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I bet. Unfortunately, I'm not much of a singer, nor do I play any instrument.
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I would much rather be in the audience. Otherwise my attention would be too taxed in a participatory nature to perform, rather than allowing my social personallity to drop into the sound ;)
--Todd
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I would much rather be in the audience. Otherwise my attention would be too taxed in a participatory nature to perform, rather than allowing my social personallity to drop into the sound ;)
To each his own, but still, it's an exhilarating experience having all those magnificent eddies of Mahlerian sound swirl all about you!
Wade