gustavmahlerboard.com
General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: chris on March 24, 2008, 01:17:12 PM
-
To be released as an SACD Hybrid or regular CD on April 8 (the same day as Gergiev's LSO M6).
Timings:
I: 25:55
II: 14:23
III: 16:12
IV: 34:06
Samples:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001551SSW/ref=dm_sp_alb?ie=UTF8&qid=1206364339&sr=8-10
I attended one of the concerts and thought the performance was positively devastating. It will be interesting to see how it translates to CD.
-
The timings look very similar to Haitink's London performance in 2002. It was very slow (as the timings suggest) but one of the most completely realized, most cumulatively devastating M6th I ever heard.
John,
-
Great news!!!!!!!!!
I second John's review of the Haitink live LSO M6...indeed it is my top M6.
--Todd
-
The audio samples sound pretty good to me. I noticed that the Andante movt. clock's just over 16 min. as compared to the London concert where it was stretched to 18 or 19 min. (if my memory is correct). This is good news.
Now Mr. Haitink, when are you going to record Mahler's Ninth Symphony again? You've recorded M1-M7 multiple times but refused to rerecord the Ninth or the Eight for that matter. Your analog RCO version of M9th was fine but we are all waiting to hear your latest thoughts on the symphony ??? Now that you've produced stunning M3rd and M6th with CSO, please consider recording it with the orchestra ;D.
John,
-
Wow, nearly 26' for the first movement! :o That should be interesting. I wonder if the finale's timing includes applause?
-
The audio samples sound pretty good to me. I noticed that the Andante movt. clock's just over 16 min. as compared to the London concert where it was stretched to 18 or 19 min. (if my memory is correct). This is good news.
Now Mr. Haitink, when are you going to record Mahler's Ninth Symphony again? You've recorded M1-M7 multiple times but refused to rerecord the Ninth or the Eight for that matter. Your analog RCO version of M9th was fine but we are all waiting to hear your latest thoughts on the symphony ??? Now that you've produced stunning M3rd and M6th with CSO, please consider recording it with the orchestra ;D.
John,
Not likely to happen (with the CSO) anytime soon - the only CSO/Mahler that Haitink is conducting in the near future are M1 in May and M2 in November.
-
Sorry to be a spoil-sport but . . . I have a copy of this already, and I think it's positively awful! - possibly the worst M6 to come out in years. Simply put, it's just too slow all over. The andante movement doesn't quite reach 17 minutes; and yet, it sounds more like 19 to me. The scherzo is ponderous, but without anything sounding particularly threatening, much less frightening. A perfect example of what's wrong with this performance can be observed in the finale.
In the slow introductory section of the finale, there's about a 12 bar passage that's a slow, funereal sounding chorale for the low brass and low woodwinds. Haitink takes this passage at an unbelievable crawl. And yet, when he gets to the one spot where he could make a HUGE ritard to great effect - the finale major chord to minor chord meltdown (just before the start of the fast music) - he just goes right through it. Needless to say, in all of the fast sections, the Chicago brass play spectacularly well. But when you finally reach the first hammerstroke - and, by the way, Haitink fails to build up the tempo in the highly chromatic passage (halfstep harmonies) leading up to that first hammerstroke - it's sadly underwhelming.
Compare how this same passage sounds when played by the Concertgebouw (both Chailly and Jansons), where the hammerstrokes are so strong that they don't even bother with Mahler's optional reinforcement on the second hammerstroke (bass drum, cymbals, tam-tam). Here's another example of Haitink's less than stellar conducting . . .
Towards the end of the finale, there's a seven bar passage (in 4/4) which sounds like a (false) victory parade. Haitink really has the horns belt this march melody out; which is a good thing. But the percussion underneath the horns and violins (violins have a sweeping countertheme) are - once again - very underwhelming. If you're going to make the horns belt out that passage - so that it sounds as though you're observing a military parade right from the sidewalk - why not resort back to Mahler's original orchestration from the first version (trombones double the horns, and there's more percussion)? At the very least, make sure that ALL of the percussionists play up to the level of the horns. Otherwise, the parade sounds like a bunch of loud horns going by, but with too few drummers in the band.
In the first movement, I like that Haitink is slow and grim with the initial march. But he fails, in my view, to make a strong enough contrast with the second subject: the so-called "Alma" theme. Compare this to how it's done on the Ivan Fischer M6, where the Alma theme comes bursting right out of the box. Haitink also fails to build much excitement or momentum at the end of the first movement. Just as things are in so many passages from his CSO M3, there's lots of loudness from the brass, but without any genuine excitement or momentum. The CSO percussion so often fail to take over at the crest of major climaxes - you just get more loud brass (and granted, they play very well).
To my mind, this has absolutely nothing over the old Barbirolli M6. Barbirolli doesn't have an expo. repeat, but that just might be a good thing with an interpretation of the opening movement that is so slow and grim. And although Barbirolli is less than a minute faster in the andante movement, he holds my attention far better than Haitink does here (the slow movement is excellent on Haitink's Berlin remake). In the finale, Barbirolli is two minutes faster than Haitink (and Barbirolli isn't fast by any means). But those two minutes make a huge difference!
In fact, the only other M6/IV that reaches 34 minutes - that I know of - is the Sinopoli. But the Sinopoli strikes me as being more decadent and interesting sounding (can't stand his 19 minute slow movement, however).
Again, I think that part of the problem is the hall, as well as the recording itself. Orchestra Hall is a bit shallow from front to back. There are passages where it sounds as though everybody is seated together in the front row. As is so often the case with the strong CSO trumpets, they often times make little or no distinction between different gradations of forte. And once again, the CSO woodwinds don't impress me, with the clarinets sounding particularly funky in spots (listen to how the CSO clarinets go completely flat in pitch at the end of Haitink's M3/I). Maybe these performances were incredibly impressive live (albeit slow), but something's just not translating with these James Mallinson recordings. Let's discuss Haitink.
On balance, I really feel that Haitink's best M6 is the very first one that he recorded with the Concertgebouw. His Berlin remake was pretty dull in the first two movements, but the andante moderato and finale were excellent - far better than here! For the CSO, I really think that the Abbado is a better overall recording, even though the CSO percussion play too far underneath the brass for him as well. At least the Solti M6 is fast and exciting, if slightly brainless (also better recorded). I also think that Haitink's recent M6 with the L'Orchestre National de France (Naive) - while being far from perfect - is more interesting and exciting than this one.
Barry
-
...too bad your reaction is so discouraging. But I'd still put my fingers crossed...until the day I get my copy. All I can say is that your overall description of this new release fits into Haitink's LSO concert as well, but I found that performance utterly convincing and gripping albeit it was very slow; if I had tried to identify the meaning of the music and Mahlerian idioms in its tempo my attention would probably have drifted away easily. But Haitink's strength in this music making was the overall architecture and the cumulative impact with which he patiently but brilliantly executed his concepts. I'll stand by this judgement until I hear the Chicago recording.
John,
-
Whatever. I didn't particularly like the CSO M3 either - which he had recorded much better, numerous times already. This M6 sounds a bit better, in terms of sonics, but I think it's musically even worse. There's just too little contrast in the first movement, and the scherzo should at least be somewhat spooky sounding - not just ponderous. To each their own.
Barry
-
Yes, Barry's description does indeed sound like the great LSO concert from 2002. I hold my breath with anticipation!!!!!
Based on Barry's review, it sounds as if Haitink is still conceptually seeing this work as a vast architectural canvas, a work to build with aniticipation and patience. Haitink's CSO M3 is also one my top M3's, so I'm really looking forward to this myself...I also keep my fingers crossed.
--Todd
-
Look, "vast architectural canvases" are fine and dandy, as long as they work. But it ain't workin' when you lose interest long before the fight is over. That was precisely my point regarding the Haitink/CSO M3: the brass chorale near the end of M3/VI was excellent, but it meant next to nothing when the rest of the performance was so snoozy. Even Michelle De Young didn't sound particular great this time out.
A "vast architectural canvas" ain't workin' when you make a huge meal out of the introductory material at the start of the finale - with little emphasis on the scary stuff, by the way - and you finally get to the first hammerstroke, and then "splat" - something hugely underwhelming happens; and then you get flooded with tons more loud brass, without any real understanding as to WHY you're having to hear tons more loud brass (and I'm a brass player,folks!).
I'm willing to bet that that Haitink/LSO M6 that you're all so excited about, is somehow more interesting or "alive" sounding than this Chicago one. And, I'm going to bet on this too: as much as Gergiev may be an overworked nut-case, at least his LSO M6 will be fast and exciting, with an andante moderato that actually observes that tempo description. It'll also be recorded every bit as well as this CSO M6 - or close to it - since it's also being recorded by James Mallinson.
With Haitink, I just keep hearing this constant desire to turn Mahler into Bruckner, and that just ain't right - period! As I've said numerous times - and Hurwitz was the one who first said it - Haitink was best with his Mahler when he hadn't yet formed an opinion.
-
Barry,
One question:
How did you get the copy so early before the official release date?
Can I get one too through your help? :-*
John,
-
Yes, I'll have to actually hear the new Haitink CSO M6...it is possible the LSO performance won't be equaled.
I hear a totally different CSO M3 though. It's not snoozy to me!! It's very well played, controlled, with a drama that unfolds with a great force.
--Todd
-
"it's very well played, controlled, with a drama that unfolds with a great force."
But I see that as part of the problem: the fact that it's both "controlled", but unfolds "with a great force". You also need some forward momentum, and there simply wasn't enough color, contrast, or much of anything else, in the pivotal "bim-bam" choral movement. To me, "controlled" + "great force" = Bruckner.
Look, here's a great comparison to make: just compare the start of the development section of the first movement on the Haitink/CSO M3/I - right where the double basses and celli play their soli passage - to the same passage on the Zinman M3. There's no comparison! Continue to the start of the of recapitulation, which is the reiteration of the symphony's opening horn fanfare. Listen to how much more exciting and alive sounding the Zinman is, during that passage where the low brass are playing their ridiculous sounding koo-koo clock-like, octave jumps; while the clarinets belt out their equally ridiculous sounding folk melodies - all of which is accompanied by tambourine (should be doubled). Then listen to how much more momentum Zinman builds up through the "southern storm" fantasy-like, climactic passage; and how he has the offstage snare drum solo played at a tempo that's much closer to that of the horn fanfare (on the Haitink, the offstage snare drum solo is waaaay too fast). This is a real Charles Ives-ian moment, where the low strings are finishing up at the old, faster tempo, while the offstage drum enters at the new, slower tempo. And for goodness sake, give the Zinman a fair chance by turning the volume way up - you'll find that things are plenty forceful enough (seldom a problem with Mahler), and that the balances are actually much better.
I could go on and on, but I'll answer a question instead: I have the Haitink/CSO M6 because the Harmonia Mundi representative gave me a promotional copy. When I saw Haitink's absurdly long timings, I warned him that I may very well end up liking the Gergiev M6 more, which is coming out at the same time, and is also distributed by Harmonia Mundi. With M6, I'll take ridiculously fast over ridiculously slow any day, assuming that everything else is about equal.
I didn't mention that I had a copy of the Haitink/CSO M6 for a pretty good reason, I believe: (old saying) if don't have something good to say about something, don't say anything at all. I wanted to study it more first, but playing it again hasn't changed my mind about it.
-
I warned him that I may very well end up liking the Gergiev M6 more, which is coming out at the same time, and is also distributed by Harmonia Mundi. With M6, I'll take ridiculously fast over ridiculously slow any day, assuming that everything else is about equal.
Please post your impressions of the Gergiev M6. Knowing me, I'll probably buy the Haitink at some time or another, if only to support the CSO releasing SACD's (your review and the timings are REALLY scaring me away, though). OTOH, I really can't get myself excited about Gergiev or the LSO in M6. A good review may sway me though!
-
As I said - and I think that somebody at HMU must have realized this too, since they're going to release both M6s in the same month - you're getting two radical Mahler 6 recordings here: one extremely slow, and one extremely fast. We've already had Barbirolli; Chailly; Sinopoli; Segerstam; Gielen (just his first two movements are slow) give us slow performances that are very good. But we haven't had an extremely fast one in a while; probably not since Jarvi (Chandos). Given a choice between extremely fast or extremely slow, I'm probably going to gravitate to the fast one.
I just think that if somebody wants to hear the 6th Mahler played by the big guns of an American orchestra, I think they should stick to
Eschenbach/Philly or MTT/SFSO (even that's hardly my favorite). I don't mean to be hating on Haitink, but I just don't hear any improvement from him. He has one very good idea in the finale, which is to slow down at the (false) victory parade march tune, towards the end, and have the horns blast out the march melody at a full fortissimo. However, he should have also realized that the passing marching band needs some drummers as well. I agree with Hurwitz's opinion, that some of the percussion simply got left off when the revised version was printed. But that's just an opinion - we have no evidence of that.
I think that a far more creative idea - especially in S/A order - is to do it the way that Gielen did: make the first and second movements slow, dark, and ponderous, but then take the andante moderato and finale more up to speed.
As for Gergiev, check out the little video promo for the LSO Live Mahler cycle. I like what he has to say, and I like how the excerpts sound. Obviously, he's going to be too fast with the symphony's initial march (and I like Haitink's slow tempo for the initial march), but he's going to have the inner movements up to speed, and the outer movements will be fast and exciting as well. Given the sort of dry, staccato sound that the LSO usually get, along with the dryish acoustics they often play in, I think that faster Mahler with them isn't a bad idea at all. We'll see. Obviously, fast tempi are going to work better in same works and some passages, than in others. The first movement of his 7th will probably be too fast, but the finale could be sensational. We'll have to wait and see.
Barry
-
I'm really looking forward to the Gergiev M6 as well, just as much as the Haitink.
The Eschenbach/Phili M6 is in my top tier, there is just something very satisfying about the playing and pacing, especially his lead-in to Alma's theme in the first movement, which is deeply moving, and the andante movement is a powerhouse.
The Macal/CPO M6 is also a winner, and another fast one that really works...he may have one of the most "objective" accounts out there (reminds me of Horenstein/Bournemouth actually). And the sound in SACD in pristine.
--Todd
-
Barry and others,
If you guys like a fast M6th, come to see and listen to Schwarz/SSO M6th concert in June. I heard them playing the symphony a couple years ago and I found they nailed down on the piece as perfectly as I could imagine. Further, it had the BEST Scherzo (which came in second) I ever heard. I always had thought Rattle had the best Scherzo but on that day Mr. Schwarz and Seattle Symphony proudly broke the record :D. In particular, Schwarz let several brass lines come out and roar in key passages. Never had I heard those parts so clearly (I actually didn't realize they were there until I heard the concert).
John,
-
I've just finished listening to the 2004 Haitink/LSO M6th concert again. It is slow, clocking at over 25 min. but otherwise a perfect performance; the playing, tempo relations, phrasing, accents, dynamics, balance, are all in the right places. And it didn't feel dragging or boring at all.
John,
-
Look, here's a great comparison to make: just compare the start of the development section of the first movement on the Haitink/CSO M3/I - right where the double basses and celli play their soli passage - to the same passage on the Zinman M3. There's no comparison! Continue to the start of the of recapitulation, which is the reiteration of the symphony's opening horn fanfare. Listen to how much more exciting and alive sounding the Zinman is, during that passage where the low brass are playing their ridiculous sounding koo-koo clock-like, octave jumps; while the clarinets belt out their equally ridiculous sounding folk melodies - all of which is accompanied by tambourine (should be doubled). Then listen to how much more momentum Zinman builds up through the "southern storm" fantasy-like, climactic passage; and how he has the offstage snare drum solo played at a tempo that's much closer to that of the horn fanfare (on the Haitink, the offstage snare drum solo is waaaay too fast). This is a real Charles Ives-ian moment, where the low strings are finishing up at the old, faster tempo, while the offstage drum enters at the new, slower tempo. And for goodness sake, give the Zinman a fair chance by turning the volume way up - you'll find that things are plenty forceful enough (seldom a problem with Mahler), and that the balances are actually much better.
I happen to have access to a good stereo system at a friend's house tonight...I hope to be able to play the Zinman M3 on speakers for the first time...I usually only hear on headphones because my apartment is too noisy.
--Todd
-
Wow...I just heard the Zinman M3 in a completely different light last night on my friend's stereo...I basically blasted the thing in a large living room, and it was like hearing a different CD.
Barry is right...you have to have this on a decent loudness...then everything comes into focus and then some!
I was so blown away, this may become my top M3 pick.
--Todd
-
I just want to add to my post above...
the details in Zinman's M3 have more character than I remembered...the orchestra sounds gigantic, and the pacing is flawless...I am still reeling in wonder! The tam tam is LOUD! :D
--Todd
-
"The tam tam is LOUD!"
What I like, is you can clearly hear the one at the end of the trombone solo - right where the upper woodwinds are playing long trills. I don't think it even got played on the Haitink/CSO one. But I shouldn't pick on that one, because it can't be heard on any number of recordings . Go figure! Horenstein has a good one there.
Barry
-
"The tam tam is LOUD!"
What I like, is you can clearly hear the one at the end of the trombone solo - right where the upper woodwinds are playing long trills. I don't think it even got played on the Haitink/CSO one. But I shouldn't pick on that one, because it can't be heard on any number of recordings . Go figure! Horenstein has a good one there.
Barry
This is a section of the score I have been paying more attention too...you are right, it is barely heard on most recordings unfortunately. And I find the tam tam issue is becoming a deal breaker for me! My top picks tend to feature this detail. Another important spot is the climax of the third movement...it's gotta sound "cosmic" and "other worldly" (or just plane BIG) to be successful...Zinman is very good at this point...perhaps the best I've heard.
--Todd
-
I also listened to II.-IV. of the Haitink/LSO live M6th and found them utterly powerful and convincing as I did upon hearing the performance for the first time. Speaking of tam tam, Haitink let it sound clearly and loud enough in various places, such as at the beginning of the coda to I. This performance takes longer than the CSO version, something like
I. 26 min.
II. 14.5 min.
III. 17.5 min.
IV. 34 min.
and yet so gripping is the performance that none of the movements sounds boring or dragging.
John,
-
I also listened to II.-IV. of the Haitink/LSO live M6th and found them utterly powerful and convincing as I did upon hearing the performance for the first time. Speaking of tam tam, Haitink let it sound clearly and loud enough in various places, such as at the beginning of the coda to I. This performance takes longer than the CSO version, something like
I. 26 min.
II. 14.5 min.
III. 17.5 min.
IV. 34 min.
and yet so gripping is the performance that none of the movements sounds boring or dragging.
John,
I hope beyond hope the CSO plays as good as the LSO...Barry has got me somewhat worried!
--Todd