gustavmahlerboard.com

General Category => Gustav Mahler and Related Discussions => Topic started by: Cristian on May 06, 2008, 06:41:19 AM

Title: Mahler's popularity
Post by: Cristian on May 06, 2008, 06:41:19 AM
Hi there!

It has been widely discussed the fact that Mahler is today one of the most performed and recorded composers. We all might have our points about why is this, but I was wondering: does anyone have some data on this? Sales figures, perhaps? I had been searching the web for this for a couple of minutes, but couldn't find anything.

Regards,
Cris.
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: john haueisen on May 06, 2008, 12:29:37 PM
I'm glad to see this question asked, Cristian. 
I too have heard that Mahler today ranks right up there with Mozart and Beethoven in the most-performed or most-recorded composers.
But the fact is, I haven't seen studies or reports on whether it's most-recorded or most-performed, and what the actual statistics are.  I hope some of our other GustavMahlerBoard members will post some information on this. 
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: barry guerrero on May 06, 2008, 12:56:15 PM
I think that that information would be difficult to come by, simply because the recording industry doesn't seem to keep track or post such figures. With Soundscan, it shouldn't be that difficult to get an idea how Mahler is doing vs. everyone else. But that also means that somebody within the industry has to take the time and trouble to look, then post. I also believe that online sales would be difficult to track, especially when people are purchasing directly from a symphony orchestra. My belief is that Mahler probably does much better online, than from impulse buys within a brick & mortor store. In spite of all the recordings being made, I don't see Mahler bins emptying out at record stores. In that sense, I believe that there's truly a glut of recordings.

Since I work in record stores, my own sense is that Mahler symphonies - in terms of sales - still lag behind those of Beethoven, but do better than the Tchaikovsky symphonies these days. That's just an impression.

Barry
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: john haueisen on May 16, 2008, 01:09:43 AM
Until one of us comes up with a way to determine Mahler's popularity today, here's a start.  I went to Amazon.com to search "Music" for the following four composers.  Now I understand that certainly Amazon may not be definitive, but for now it's a starting point of what is available TODAY from a huge dealer. 
Here's what I found:

Mahler:            2,792 items
Wagner:          5,975 items
Brahms:           8,000 items
Beethoven:    15,544 items

Whatever these numbers tell us, they do seem at least to indicate that Brother Barry is correct in his sense that Beethoven still rules.
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: Wolfbane on May 16, 2008, 06:02:31 AM
Mahler:            2,792 items
Wagner:          5,975 items
Brahms:           8,000 items
Beethoven:    15,544 items

Whatever these numbers tell us, they do seem at least to indicate that Brother Barry is correct in his sense that Beethoven still rules.

A handy start John. 
But if we now divide each of those totals by the number of unique items they represent, I think Mahler might come out a clear front runner given that he has so few individual compositions compared with the others.
Just a thought.
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: Dave H on May 16, 2008, 04:40:27 PM
I think this is correct. The absolute number of available recordings cannot be used as a measure, unless, for example, you specify a certain time-frame (recording began before Mahler's complete works had been written, after all, and if the question concerns their popularity today, then we should limite the discussion to, say, the past 20 years or so), make some correction for genre (no chamber music, no solo instrumental works), for total quantitative compositional output, for historical factors (Mahler being banned by the Nazis during WWII), and otherwise try to level the playing field. The popularity of Mahler can perhaps be better judged by looking at orchestral programming not just in major cities, but in small ones as well. Let me make some anecdotal observations along these lines that may offer some insights into the phenomenon.

1. Mahler is now routinely performed by community and youth orchestras. This started in the late 70s and early 80s, and in fact Barry G and I particpated in some performances of the First Symphony during this period. I have played the Sixth maybe a dozen times since, which is remarkable when you come to think about it. The reason Mahler is so popular at this "grass roots" level is that the parts are so rewarding to play that it's easy to get wind, brass, and percussion players who will volunteer their services. You would think that doing Mahler would be more difficult because the forces are so large, but this often turns out not to be the case. I've played all of the symphonies except the Eighth at the community level, and on multiple occasions. By contrast, works by, say, Bruckner or Sibelius are nearly impossible to program because string players often hate them (just try to do Sibelius' Fifth--half an hour of tremolos--and watch your string section vanish before your eyes).

2. For regular orchestras, Mahler symphonies offer the followning advantages:

a. They give today's large, permanent ensembles something for everyone to do. If you're doing to pay to keep 100+ people employed full time, you need to have large works on your program regularly.

b. They fill up an evening all by themselves--this is important because concerts are, on the whole, shorter than they used to be, so having one big, long symphony makes for a very satsifying program all by itself. Mahler's "worlds," particularly the symphonies with vocal soloists (Second, Third, Eighth) are particularly appealing in this respect.

c. The Second and Eighth are really great 'special occasion' pieces, particularly the Second, particularly after natural disasters, dedications of new concert halls, or splashy opening/farewell concerts.

d. They are actually MORE economical than you might think. Again, consider that the full orchestra is already getting paid, so if you don't want to incur the extra cost of a concerto soloist (and spend the rehearsal time on a mixed program), doing a single Mahler symphony is actually very efficient and cost-effective.

e. Similarly, they make great calling cards for orchestras on tour, and all of the above economic issues come into play even more forcefully for a travelling ensemble.

f. Finally, look at the move in Mahler performance away from the symphonies being the preserve of "specialists" to their being part of the basic repertoire of all major conductors active today. Of course, there will always be some exceptions--but the point is that they ARE exceptions.

3. The limited number of actual works makes Mahler's entire output manageable for both listeners and performing arts organizations (just as Beethoven's nine symphonies are), while the incredible variety from one work to the next makes hearing them all endlessly fascinating. There's value is scarcity! This also makes Mahler a perfect "festival" composer--ideal for themed surveys of his complete output over a season, or shorter period. Consider ventures as diverse as the Colorado MahlerFest devoted to single works, or the complete cycle being given at Carnegie Hall next season within a few short weeks.

4. Mahler's life makes a terrific story. Never underestimate the unfortunately large impact of extra-musical considerations on a composer's popularity. If Mozart hadn't died young, or had been wealthy and successful, would we care about the junk he wrote when he was a kid? I doubt it!

5. Final anecdote: remember the film Educating Rita? When Rita finally goes to colleage and meets her strung-out, suicidal roomate who opens the door of their flat to the strains of Kubelik's Mahler Sixth and the line "Couldn't you just die with Maaaaahler?" When you "break through" in popular culture like that, you've surely arrived!

One way to research this further is to go to the American Symphony Orchestra Leaque website (asol.org) and look at programs, particularly in out of the way places. You will often see Mahler programmed, and this I think speaks for itself.

Dave H
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: john haueisen on May 16, 2008, 07:12:06 PM
Wow, Wolfbane and Dave H--What excellent thoughts you have expressed about the difficulties in determining Mahler's popularity.

The fact of his relatively few compositions illustrates how amazing it is that he is this popular.
Dave H presents explanations via the benefits of performing Mahler's works.  I had always thought of the difficulty of performing Mahler, but Dave has pointed out benefits to the musicians and to both large and small orchestras.

Thanks for these great elucidations.

Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: Dave H on May 16, 2008, 11:00:22 PM
The fact the Mahler wrote comparatively few works is not a barrier to his popularity, it is a plus, particularly in our busy world. Think of the composers who are extremely popular for just one or two works: Gershwin, Bizet, Carl Orff, Mascagni, Mussorsky--I could go on and one. It's easier for people to deal with less.

Best,
Dave H
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: Cristian on May 18, 2008, 07:47:26 AM
Hi there!

Thanks for the replies!!

Here's some data I could find: Number of recordings in the ArkivMusic website.

The problem here, as in the case of haueisen's data from Amazon, is that we cannot know how many of those recordings are from the last -say- 30 years. Anyway, here it goes:


#   Composer      Recordings
1   Mozart, Wolfgang Amadeus   6427
2   Bach, Johann Sebastian   5652
3   Beethoven, Ludwig van   4791
4   Schubert, Franz      3263
5   Brahms, Johannes      3261
6   Verdi, Giuseppe      3171
7   Tchaikovsky, Peter Ilyich   2889
8   Handel, George Frideric      2410
9   Schumann, Robert      2224
10   Mendelssohn, Felix      2208
11   Wagner, Richard      2073
12   Chopin, Frédéric      2041
13   Debussy, Claude      2035
14   Puccini, Giacomo      1983
15   Liszt, Franz                      1830
16   Haydn, Franz Joseph      1773
17   Vivaldi, Antonio      1756
18   Dvorák, Antonín      1700
19   Rossini, Gioachino      1629
20   Ravel, Maurice      1601
21   Rachmaninov, Sergei      1542
22   Strauss, Richard      1487
23   Bizet, Georges      1473
24   Saint-Saëns, Camille      1339
25   Donizetti, Gaetano      1297
26   Gounod, Charles      1217
27   Prokofiev, Sergei      1206
28   Fauré, Gabriel      1140
29   Massenet, Jules      1128
30   Shostakovich, Dmitri      1108
31   Grieg, Edvard      1102
32   Mahler, Gustav      1003
33   Strauss Jr., Johann      936
34   Elgar, Sir Edward      932
35   Stravinsky, Igor      887
36   Berlioz, Hector      790
37   Sibelius, Jean      777
38   Bellini, Vincenzo      756
39   Rimsky-Korsakov, Nikolai   752
40   Britten, Benjamin      747
41   Franck, César      747
42   Vaughan Williams, Ralph   711
43   Mussorgsky, Modest      710
44   Bartók, Béla      699
45   Gershwin, George      696
46   Weber, Carl Maria von      696
47   Purcell, Henry      688
48   Mascagni, Pietro      669
49   Leoncavallo, Ruggero      668
50   Telemann, Georg Philipp   647
51   Bruckner, Anton      618
52   Offenbach, Jacques      597
53   Falla, Manuel de      572
54   Gluck, Christoph W.      551
55   Poulenc, Francis      527
56   Copland, Aaron      492
57   Barber, Samuel      474
58   Scarlatti, Domenico      474
59   Villa-Lobos, Heitor      471
60   Pachelbel, Johann      468
61   Albeniz, Isaac      456
62   Bernstein, Leonard      452
63   Satie, Erik                      450
64   Smetana, Bedrich      440
65   Monteverdi, Claudio      424
66   Hindemith, Paul      419
67   Borodin, Alexander      407
68   Holst, Gustav      406
69   Paganini, Niccolò      402
70   Granados, Enrique      398
71   Delibes, Léo      392
72   Boccherini, Luigi      382
73   Albinoni, Tomaso      372
74   Scriabin, Alexander      372
75   Janácek, Leos      362
76   Rodrigo, Joaquin      362
77   Byrd, William      353
78   Lehár, Franz      353
79   Bruch, Max                      326
80   Walton, Sir William      326
81   Kreisler, Fritz      318
82   Respighi, Ottorino      318
83   Corelli, Arcangelo      292
84   Khachaturian, Aram      287
85   Nielsen, Carl      283
86   Glazunov, Alexander      271
87   Ives, Charles      245
88   Sarasate, Pablo de      221
89   Rameau, Jean-Philippe      220
90   Hummel, Johann Nepomuk   208
91   Bloch, Ernest      203
92   Ponce, Manuel      198
93   Delius, Frederick      195
94   Korngold, Erich Wolfgang   195
95   Pärt, Arvo                      181
96   Arnold, Malcolm      140
97   Bach, Johann Christian      139
98   Marais, Marin      106
99   Lully, Jean-Baptiste      105
100   Rautavaara, Einojuhani      87
TOTAL         100577

Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: john haueisen on May 18, 2008, 04:20:20 PM
Thanks for the further research, Cristian.
OUCH!  Poor Gustav would be piqued to have been edged out for 31st place by Edvard Grieg!
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: Ben on May 18, 2008, 05:20:35 PM
Also, while it provides a general comparison, there is no way to tell from these numbers how many are duplicate recordings (reissues, repackaging, Arkiv CDs, etc.).  And how many of these recordings feature a movement or two on a compilation CD?  I think it would be a very difficult task to identify accurately numbers of recordings.

Ben
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: john haueisen on May 18, 2008, 06:16:48 PM
Good point, Ben.
I had considered the difficulty of spotting reissues, but I had not thought of how many listings might just be one track on a compilation.  This would be tough to evaluate.
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: Polarius T on May 18, 2008, 10:49:24 PM
I think this is correct. The absolute number of available recordings cannot be used as a measure, unless, for example, you specify a certain time-frame (recording began before Mahler's complete works had been written, after all, and if the question concerns their popularity today, then we should limite the discussion to, say, the past 20 years or so), make some correction for genre (no chamber music, no solo instrumental works), for total quantitative compositional output, for historical factors (Mahler being banned by the Nazis during WWII), and otherwise try to level the playing field. The popularity of Mahler can perhaps be better judged by looking at orchestral programming not just in major cities, but in small ones as well. Let me make some anecdotal observations along these lines that may offer some insights into the phenomenon.

1. Mahler is now routinely performed by community and youth orchestras. This started in the late 70s and early 80s, and in fact Barry G and I particpated in some performances of the First Symphony during this period. I have played the Sixth maybe a dozen times since, which is remarkable when you come to think about it. The reason Mahler is so popular at this "grass roots" level is that the parts are so rewarding to play that it's easy to get wind, brass, and percussion players who will volunteer their services. You would think that doing Mahler would be more difficult because the forces are so large, but this often turns out not to be the case. I've played all of the symphonies except the Eighth at the community level, and on multiple occasions. By contrast, works by, say, Bruckner or Sibelius are nearly impossible to program because string players often hate them (just try to do Sibelius' Fifth--half an hour of tremolos--and watch your string section vanish before your eyes).

2. For regular orchestras, Mahler symphonies offer the followning advantages:

a. They give today's large, permanent ensembles something for everyone to do. If you're doing to pay to keep 100+ people employed full time, you need to have large works on your program regularly.

b. They fill up an evening all by themselves--this is important because concerts are, on the whole, shorter than they used to be, so having one big, long symphony makes for a very satsifying program all by itself. Mahler's "worlds," particularly the symphonies with vocal soloists (Second, Third, Eighth) are particularly appealing in this respect.

c. The Second and Eighth are really great 'special occasion' pieces, particularly the Second, particularly after natural disasters, dedications of new concert halls, or splashy opening/farewell concerts.

d. They are actually MORE economical than you might think. Again, consider that the full orchestra is already getting paid, so if you don't want to incur the extra cost of a concerto soloist (and spend the rehearsal time on a mixed program), doing a single Mahler symphony is actually very efficient and cost-effective.

e. Similarly, they make great calling cards for orchestras on tour, and all of the above economic issues come into play even more forcefully for a travelling ensemble.

f. Finally, look at the move in Mahler performance away from the symphonies being the preserve of "specialists" to their being part of the basic repertoire of all major conductors active today. Of course, there will always be some exceptions--but the point is that they ARE exceptions.

3. The limited number of actual works makes Mahler's entire output manageable for both listeners and performing arts organizations (just as Beethoven's nine symphonies are), while the incredible variety from one work to the next makes hearing them all endlessly fascinating. There's value is scarcity! This also makes Mahler a perfect "festival" composer--ideal for themed surveys of his complete output over a season, or shorter period. Consider ventures as diverse as the Colorado MahlerFest devoted to single works, or the complete cycle being given at Carnegie Hall next season within a few short weeks.

4. Mahler's life makes a terrific story. Never underestimate the unfortunately large impact of extra-musical considerations on a composer's popularity. If Mozart hadn't died young, or had been wealthy and successful, would we care about the junk he wrote when he was a kid? I doubt it!

While all this makes sense, it could also be taken as somewhat functionalist or utilitarian as an explanation and should we say even a bit cynical, too, at that. Maybe there's just a time span it takes to seep into people's focus and become understood broadly enough. Right now we seem to have moved past Liszt, Brahms, and Wagner and are busy approaching the apex of the Belle Epoque, which makes me hopeful there is a Schoenberg renaissance waiting behind the corner.

More seriously, it might help, too, that we are in the privileged position of being able to approach Mahler from the vantage point of our own time. The riches in his works might open up better that way; after all, all works of genius are far ahead of their time, and Mahler was one of the greatest among those we've thus far had (and not just technically, mind you, but also philosophically -- think of what the high modernism of the '50s and then, rather paradoxically, also postmodernism has done to help Mahler reception). That might explain why all the Brittens, Prokofievs, Hindemiths, and Shostakoviches made it to the general consciousness first. I, too, made the journey to Mahler's music backwards, starting from contemporary composers and working my way backwards to him, including also the order in which I felt I "got" his symphonies (from the 9th to the 1st).

PT
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: Cristian on May 24, 2008, 12:29:31 PM
Here's some more fun data brought to you by Google fights

(all searches were done with quotes)

Johann Sebastian Bach   7960000
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart   7840000
Ludwig van Beethoven    6650000
Richard Wagner    5470000
Johannes Brahms    4150000
Fredéric Chopin    3940000
Franz Schubert   3730000
Franz Liszt    3040000
Claude Debussy    2910000
Richard Strauss   2850000
Robert Schumann   2720000
Gustav Mahler   2360000
Antonin Dvorak   2110000
Georg Friedrich Haendel + GF Handel   2074000
Hector Berlioz    1650000
Igor Stravinsky   1510000
Arnold Schoenberg    894000
Sergei Rachmaninov + S Rachmaninoff   558000
Dimitri Shostakovich   110000
Not bad huh! Ahead of Dvorak, Haendel, Berlioz, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Rachmaninov, Shostakovich...

Strauss is cheating, of course! (There must be many people with that name!!) lol :-)
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: Polarius T on May 24, 2008, 12:39:44 PM
Arnold Schoenberg    894000
Sergei Rachmaninov + S Rachmaninoff   558000
And Schoenberg ahead of Rachmaninov! As said, we're finally moving on!

 :D

PT
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: john haueisen on May 24, 2008, 07:21:26 PM
Amazing Google stats.
Surprises me to see Debussy so high.
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: Amphissa on May 24, 2008, 08:25:23 PM
Arnold Schoenberg    894000
Sergei Rachmaninov + S Rachmaninoff   558000
And Schoenberg ahead of Rachmaninov! As said, we're finally moving on!

 :D

PT


Anyone who thinks Schoenberg is more popular than Rachmaninoff is drinking some very strange koolaid. Rather, it suggests that, however interesting Google Fights is (and I had a lot of fun playing with it just now), its not giving results that coincide with what we'd normally think of as real world popularity.

There are, I think, 3 good indicators of "popularity" of composers:
1. Concert performances of major orchestral works
2. Polls of public listening preferences
3. Sales (CD/LP and download)

I think a real gauge of popularity would require all three of those indicators. A lot of people do not buy music, but they do listen to the radio. Some go to concerts but rarely if ever buy music. Some people go to concerts and buy CDs, but never listen to the radio.

It's really difficult to get at sales figures of Amazon for music, and I don't use iTunes, so I don't know if sales figures are accessible there.

However, I did look at the performance numbers for American Orchestras for the 2006-2007 Season. This is all U.S. Orchestras that are members of the League of American Orchestras (formerly known as American Orchestra League). This includes almost every orchestra in the U.S., but would not include performances by a festival orchestra put together during summer festivals, that sort of thing. But basically, every established orchestra in the U.S.

In all, there were 3,710 concerts, featuring performances of 11,501 works by 601 composers.

Here are the 20 most performed works during the season:

Brahms SYMPHONY NO. 2 = 72
Tchaikovsky SYMPHONY NO. 6 = 69
Shostakovich SYMPHONY NO. 5 = 66
Brahms SYMPHONY NO. 1 = 62
Rimsky-Korsakov SCHEHEREZADE = 62
Brahms CONCERTO FOR VIOLIN = 62
Beethoven SYMPHONY NO. 3 = 58
Brahms CONCERTO FOR PIANO, NO. 1 = 54
Berlioz SYMPHONIE FANTASTIQUE = 52
Beethoven SYMPHONY NO. 5 = 51
Rachmaninoff RHAPSODY ON A THEME OF PAGANINI = 48
Tchaikovsky CONCERTO FOR VIOLIN = 48
Brahms SYMPHONY NO. 4 = 48
Mendelssohn CONCERTO FOR VIOLIN = 46
Tchaikovsky SYMPHONY NO. 4 = 45
Beethoven CONCERTO FOR VIOLIN = 45
Beethoven SYMPHONY NO. 6 = 45
Beethoven SYMPHONY NO. 9 = 45
Debussy LA MER = 44
Bruch CONCERTO FOR VIOLIN = 43
Tchaikovsky CONCERTO FOR PIANO = 43

Here is a quick tally of the number of major works by composers programmed for performance. These numbers are for Major Symphonic Works -- i.e., concertos, symphonies, or other multi-movement, lengthy works (like Respighi's Pines of Rome, Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade, Rachmaninoff's Symphonic Dances, Debussy's La Mer, etc).

Note: These numbers differ somewhat from the list of most performed works above. Best I can figure out how they are tallying their numbers works like this -- for example,  Debussy's La Mer was programmed for performance by 20 orchestras during the season. Some of those orchestras performed it several times, resulting in the count of 44 performances above. My list below indicates the number of orchestras who scheduled each major symphonic work by a composer for performance, not the number of times it was performed. So similarly, as another example, Scheherazade was scheduled by 26 orchestras during the season (my list below) and played 62 times (the list above).

So, with that confusion dispensed with, here are the total number of times Mahler Symphonies were programmed by U.S. orchestras in the 2006-2007 season:
M1 = 18
M2 = 8
M3 = 6
M4 = 12
M5 = 8
M6 = 2
M7 = 5
M9 = 2
M10= 4
Other Orchestral Works = 4
Total U.S. Performances = 69

Compare that to the number of major symphonic works programmed by other composers.

Beethoven = 296
Mozart = 233
Brahms = 176
Tchaikovsky = 137
Dvorak = 113
Rachmaninoff = 94
Stravinsky=91
Bach = 86
Strauss = 83
Prokofiev = 69
Mahler = 69
Sibelius = 67
Schumann = 63
Ravel = 51
Rimsky-Korsakov = 46
Saint-Saens = 42
Schubert = 35
Debussy = 34
Respighi = 32
Vaughan Williams = 23
Bruckner = 22
Schoenberg = 14 (Verklarte Nacht = 7)

So, Mahler makes it into the top 10. (But sorry, Schoenberg is nowhere near Rachmaninoff.)

As for radio listener polls, I seem to remember seeing polls from BBC and from Australia ABC in the past, but since the performance results are limited to the U.S., maybe the radio listener's poll should be limited to the U.S. as well. The only poll I am familiar with (maybe someone can contribute results from other stations) are the polls conducted annually by WQXR in New York. Now, I would not pretend that the results from WQXR coincide with national classical music interest. But it is probably the single largest listening audience of any classical radio station in the country.

The WQXR Top 10 Favorite Works for 2007-2008

1  Beethoven  Symphony No. 9 in d, Op. 125 "Choral"
2  Beethoven  Symphony No. 7 in A, Op. 92
3  Beethoven  Symphony No. 5 in c, Op. 67
4  Dvorak  Symphony No. 9 in e, Op. 95 "From the New World"
5  Beethoven  Piano Concerto No. 5 in E flat, Op 73 "Emperor"
6  Mahler  Symphony No. 2 in c, "Resurrection"
7  Rachmaninoff  Piano Concerto No. 2 in c, Op. 18
8  Beethoven  Symphony No. 6 in F, Op. 68 "Pastoral"
9  Stravinsky  Le Sacre du Printemps (Rite of Spring)
10  Mozart  Requiem in d, K 626

So, Mahler once again appears in the top 10. So does Rachmaninoff -- sorry, no Schoenberg. However, as evidence that this listening audience may not be particularly representative of the rest of the country, there is Stravinsky at #9.

The list, though, has not really changed much over the past half-decade. Here is the poll for 2002-2003:
1: Beethoven: Symphony No 9 “Choral”
2: Beethoven: Symphony No 5
3: Beethoven: Symphony No 7
4: Vivaldi: Four Seasons
5: Beethoven: Piano Concerto No 5 “Emperor”
6: Bach: Brandenburg Concerti
7: Beethoven: Symphony No 6 “Pastorale”
8: Dvorak: Symphony No 9 “From the New World”
9: Mahler: Symphony No 2 “Resurrection”
10: Rachmaninoff: Piano Concerto No 2

Instead of Stravinsky, we see another outlier -- Vivaldi. The real question to me is: Where's Brahms. But if you go further in the list, you find him.

Top 40 favorites -- composers with multiple works:
Beethoven = 6
Mozart = 5
Brahms = 3
Rachmaninoff = 3
Mahler = 3
Tchaikovsky = 3
Bach = 3

So, in sum, I'd say that Mahler is in the Top 10 of composers in terms of performances by U.S. orchestras and his symphony No. 2 is among the most popular of all major classical works among a pretty sophisticated audience of classical radio listeners.


If you want to check my numbers (I was never much good at math), here is a link to the League of American Orchestras performance data.
http://www.americanorchestras.org/knowledge_center/orr_current.html (http://www.americanorchestras.org/knowledge_center/orr_current.html)
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: Polarius T on May 24, 2008, 09:42:20 PM
But sorry, Schoenberg is nowhere near Rachmaninoff.

I knew it was too good to be true.  :(

Those stats all actually really interesting to me (and for most of us I'd guess), thanks for putting it all together and posting the useful summaries. I think your points are very relevant, especially the way you divide the "music consumers" into different audience groups. Of them, the radio listeners I in fact had almost (and totally inexcusably of course) forgotten already on this specific issue (may it live long though). Yet even the classical music radio listeners I know personally clearly correspond to the type you present: they seem more sophisticated and generally more knowledgeable than your average music buyer.

Interesting, indeed, even if on the whole this only confirms the expectations (although I wouldn't have thought to see Brahms that high up in orchestral programming).

So we'll keep waiting.  8)

PT
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: Cristian on May 24, 2008, 09:59:04 PM
Finally, some REAL stats! Thanks a lot, Amphissa!!!

The second table (WQXR Top 10 Favorite Works for 2007-2008) really surprises me. M2 over Rach's PC2, B's Pastoral, Stravinsky's ROS and Mozart's Requiem?

Haring and especially seeing M2 live really makes a lasting impression, but M2 ahead of those "all time classics" wich are known to virtually anyone who listens CM even casually? I think what we got here is a hint of another aspect, namely: that Mahler's fans are much more "militant".

Again, thanks a lot for these stats, they are quite revealing.

Cris.
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: Amphissa on May 25, 2008, 12:03:50 AM

Apologies to all. I inexcusably left out counts for Shostakovich and Haydn. Since 2005-2006 was the celebration year for Shostakovich, many orchestras scheduled his music. If I had included those numbers, I'm sure he would have been in the top 10 of concert performances. I also forgot about Haydn. Barry will probably blast me for that oversight. But frankly, I'm tired of plowing through those reports. I'll leave it to others to add them in.

I'm not surprised to see Brahms performed so much. But then, I love Brahms, so I'm not complaining. I was actually surprised to see Stravinsky so high up that list.

I only vaguely remember the BBC and ABC radio listeners polls. But I do remember that Rachmaninoff was far more popular in those polls. His PC2, PC3 and Sym2 were always very highly listed, with 2 of them usually appearing in the top 10.

I do wonder if European performance records would be quite different. I think a much wider array of music is performed in Europe, and that the radio and television broadcasts allows listeners to hear a much greater variety of music than we get in the U.S. As a result, I think their choices would be very different as well.
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: Polarius T on May 26, 2008, 09:30:25 AM
...But then, I love Brahms, so I'm not complaining. I was actually surprised to see Stravinsky so high up that list.

I'm not complaining, either; only Barry might... ;D

But for all serious Mahlerians Brahms is a must. If in doubt, consult your well-known Schoenberg essay on "Brahms the Progressive," included in his Style and Idea (or ask Reger): Where did such central features of a Mahler symphony as for example asymmetry (of form), irregularity (of phrase length), and what Schoenberg termed the principle of "developing variation" originate if not in Brahms?

As for Stravinsky, I think that's more as expected: you can include a Stravinsky piece in any program you do, regardless of the concept and style you're after; Stravinsky tried (and pretty much perfectly mastered) them all at least twice during his long life span.

PT
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: Amphissa on May 26, 2008, 02:51:50 PM

The interesting thing about Stravinsky is, his early works, all the way up to and including The Firebird, are not innovative at all. He was part of the Balyeyev circle, which included Arensky and Taneyev. Taneyev was thought of as the Russian Brahms, very set on form, but with the added strength of counterpoint, which Brahms did not use much. The Balyeyev circle are often thought to be the path-breakers for the transition to modernism that occurred between 1910-1920 in Russia.

The Balyeyev circle drew upon the ideas of Tchaikovsky and Rimsky-Korsakov. Most people have not listened to Rimsky-Korsakov's late works, especially his operas. Rimsky-Korsakov's octatonic harmonic idiom was a goldmine for those wanting to move into more modernist composition. In the octatonic scale, half-notes alternate with whole notes, and the harmonic functions are comparable to those of the whole-tone scale. He used this for portrayal of all of his "fantastical" subjects in his operas. (And his operas were mostly about myths, legends, and fantasy subjects.)

Stravinsky used the octatonic scale extensively. However, The Firebird made him a celebrity in Paris, whereas he was just one of many composers doing the same thing in Russia. This is what he needed to begin composing more experimental works.

My point is, for those looking for the roots of modernism often forget Rimsky-Korsakov. He wrote much more than Scheherazade and Flight of the Bumblebee. His best music is in his operas, and his most innovative harmonic ideas appeared in his later works. As for other members of the Balyeyev circle, Taneyev was a major composer of the era, sadly forgotten now. That is surely because he wrote mostly chamber music -- only 4 symphonies. The Russian chamber music competition and festival is named for him. Of course, he and Arensky had a few students you probably heard of -- Rachmaninoff and Scriabin.

Rachmaninoff carried the flame of Tchaikovsky to the West. Scriabin built upon the late ideas of Rimsky-Korsakov to become the great innovator within Russia, relying very heavily on octatonic scale. And three others became their heirs, the great triumvirate of Russian composers of the Soviet era. Prokofiev, Shostakovich, and the other, now forgotten, Myaskovsky.

Polarius, you wait for the day Schoenberg will be popular. I wait for the day Myaskovsky will be rediscovered the way Shostakovich was. Because, IMO, his music is better than Shostakovich.

What does this have to do with Mahler? Probably nothing. Just holiday rambling about things that interest me.

Recommended listening:
Taneyev - John of Damascus, Oresteia Overture, Symphony No. 4
Myaskovsky - Symphonies 5, 6, 21, "Silence" symphonic poem, and in the great romantic tradition, his Violin Concerto, Cello Concerto, Symphonies 15, 25 & 27
Rimsky-Korsakov - Sadko, Skazka ("The Tale") symphonic poem.
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: Polarius T on May 26, 2008, 03:49:13 PM
I'll just add a few titles to the list of recommendations you give in your appealing writeup whose impetus is easy to agree with:

- Myaskovsky: Sviatoslav Richter (who else!?) will make new converts with his account of the 3rd Piano Sonata; there are several recordings, of which the best one, interpretatively (in my view) and engineeringwise (for sure), is a live taping from '73, issued by Pyramid in France if only anyone can find it in used CDs stores or somewhere in the online jungle (OOP long time ago).

- Taneyev: ditto for the chamber music disc by -- just read these names aloud to yourself! -- Pletnev, Gringolts, Vadim Repin, Lynn Harrell (so good to hear from him), and Nobuko Imai, out on DG just a couple of years ago.

Btw, have you heard his (Taneyev) cantata "At the Reading of a Psalm" (with Pletnev conducting, an early Pentatone box set IIRC)?

Both are great.

PT
Title: Re: Mahler's popularity
Post by: Cristian on May 27, 2008, 07:07:37 AM
Here's some more relevant data out of Vincent's site: http://gustavmahler.net.free.fr/us.html

Recordings by decade.

 (http://img133.imagevenue.com/loc914/th_23857_Absolutos_122_914lo.jpg) (http://img133.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=23857_Absolutos_122_914lo.jpg)


 (http://img106.imagevenue.com/loc855/th_23862_Porcentajes_122_855lo.jpg) (http://img106.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=23862_Porcentajes_122_855lo.jpg)


An important note regarding these data is also that many of those 30's-70's recordings listed in Vincent's site were not available at that time. Instead, they were released in recent years (mostly in the 2000's).

If someone is interested in getting the spreadsheet, please PM me

Regards,
Cris.